Main objective/villain in coiling dragon??

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  • Vexram said:

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    arkeus, actually linley gets very little gear as a whole. most people only had 1 or 2 weapons and maybe 1 armor/soul protecting device. and the soul items are automatically destroyed upon death unless sov item. the only things linley gets bascially in the whole story after going to the infernal realm is money, sparks, space rings, and sov's might, and maybe a few consumable items. very little total gear overall. of course linley could have gotten quite a few weapons and armor but it's never mentioned in the story. ever.

    No, he gets a ton of gear. He kills tons and tons of people who had weapons/protecting devices, it's just that he begins with top tier items. from there he only needs to switch when he becomes paragon, if even that.

    Soul items aren't automatically destroyed upon death, they only get destroyed if a soul attack kill them. It's even mentionned about the 4 divine beasts. Linley gets tons of gear, buys lots of stuff for delia... But he himself already has gear that can't be improved upon, so he only buys himself delicious soul-sstrenghtening items.

    As for Bebe, he has Beirut giving him sovereign artifacts, so...

    It's not that Linley doesn't get a lot of total gear, it's that the gear he gets (which is thousands of highods weapons/armours/etc) is utterly useless to him because he began the story with sovereign artifact and quickly got a Asura weapon.

    So, yeah- the difference, if any, is that in CD the gear is mostly meaningless. But that's just because he got better from the get go. Oh, and he still uses stuff like Deathgolems/etc.
  • edited December 2015
    @xianxiafan,

    dude. divine/sov items/overgod items don't haven sentience. they only obey the owners because they are blood-binded to them. why do you think people put  a drop of blood on everything. so again no clue how you got this line of thought about sentient weapons.


    dude it's a 'GOD SPARK WEAPON!!!!' the chief sovereign of destruction cannot make them. and i seriously doubt beirut was all 'buddy buddy' with him before the whole 4dbc thing was going down. so yeah basically beirut had to make his own weapon. as for the time it takes to make divine/sov items. IET more or less just ignored his own rules on that one. best just to forget about time span needed to make them.


    dude... i guess you ignored the 20 or so times that having an item attuned to yourself is way better than some random armor weapon you pick up. so of course linley is gonna upgrade bladeless. plus it has all that sentimental value, plus 4 clones so he can nurture it anytime really.


    actually people want sov artifacts not because of durablity but power. a sov item is at least 100 times stronger than even the strongest highgod item. so again not about durability but power. cept in the case of godspark items. those are outside the norm.
  • Arkeus said:

    Vexram said:

    .

    arkeus, actually linley gets very little gear as a whole. most people only had 1 or 2 weapons and maybe 1 armor/soul protecting device. and the soul items are automatically destroyed upon death unless sov item. the only things linley gets bascially in the whole story after going to the infernal realm is money, sparks, space rings, and sov's might, and maybe a few consumable items. very little total gear overall. of course linley could have gotten quite a few weapons and armor but it's never mentioned in the story. ever.

    No, he gets a ton of gear. He kills tons and tons of people who had weapons/protecting devices, it's just that he begins with top tier items. from there he only needs to switch when he becomes paragon, if even that.

    Soul items aren't automatically destroyed upon death, they only get destroyed if a soul attack kill them. It's even mentionned about the 4 divine beasts. Linley gets tons of gear, buys lots of stuff for delia... But he himself already has gear that can't be improved upon, so he only buys himself delicious soul-sstrenghtening items.

    As for Bebe, he has Beirut giving him sovereign artifacts, so...

    It's not that Linley doesn't get a lot of total gear, it's that the gear he gets (which is thousands of highods weapons/armours/etc) is utterly useless to him because he began the story with sovereign artifact and quickly got a Asura weapon.

    So, yeah- the difference, if any, is that in CD the gear is mostly meaningless. But that's just because he got better from the get go. Oh, and he still uses stuff like Deathgolems/etc.
    alright fine, you win, linley gets lots of stuff. im sure all of IET's characters do. i seriously doubt that any of IET's character on there path to greatness haven't gotten a bunch of stuff along the way. but still lets limit it to 'named items' then. how many 'named items' to they get. ST and DE have a lot. but CD has very few, maybe 10-20 at most. (bladeless, bloodviolet, CD ring, golems, spear, dagger (darkness dagger linley sold not bebes), mirage, life overgod sword, hmm whatelse?)
  • Vexram

    Did you not read it. I mean sure it was breezed over and never really mentioned but go back to book 12 with conversation between Linley and Muba. It specifically said that blood binding only does not make it yours. It was explained that to make a weapon truly yours, you need to nurture it. A weapon not divine would turn into one while a divine weapon would acknowledge you as its new master. However, the author completely skipped over it and made no further mention or details about it. My point is that this whole "mastering" thing should have been relevant to the power you can use with the artifact.
    You clearly only read the obvious things and stuff that happens later in the book. You need to realize that this author made a lot of buildups and rules in the very beginning that he completely disregards later on.
    An example would be the whole idea that Beirut isn't suppose to have a sov artifact already when he's only been one for like 15000 years. Also, it doesn't matter that it was forged with God Sparks. According to Muba, the material a weapon is made of has very little importance in its overall strength. Of course, this is a bit of a bullshit cause I would agree that godspark weapons are very powerful yet don't really have any sentience. But that's the authors problem.

    Sov artifacts are seek for their durability. No one cares about this "power" cause they don't really have any. They are suppose to but the author again skipped over this. Whenever an artifact is described to be destructive or something, that's the work of the guy using it, infusing it with power and using the laws. There really wasn't any mention of its power otherwise there would be differences. For example, a destruction type weapon would work better for material attacks than a life type right? You would think that but the real answer is that it's all dependent of the user. If both guys have the same strength, then their material attacks would be same no matter if it was destruction or life. This is based on the fact that no sov artifact was ever mentioned to be of a particular type and the people using them don't seem to care. When Linley was handing sov artifacts to his emissaries, they didn't ask for a specific nature, they just wanted a weapon, defensive, or soul protecting. You can conclude, that it makes no difference, they just want it cause it's a lot more durable than anything else.

    I do acknowledge that being in tune makes difference, I'm arguing for it. But the author is the one who is disregarding it. And what does that have to do with Linley making bladeless an artifact. Do commander use their own artifact that they nurture or do they use sov artifacts. Bladeless isn't even a sov artifact unless this is another case similar to Beirut. It's completely pointless to make it so because it's not as good as Linley dragonform and definitely weaker than the overgod weapon. And how can you say it has sentimental value when you just said they don't have any of it.
  • edited December 2015
    i see. i understand now. you misinterpreted what the author said. the author was referring to nurturing a weapon/item to bring about maximum ability not that the item actually has sentience. for instance. if you were a darkness path and were to use a light weapon, you would be nowhere near as powerful if you were using a darkness weapon. nothing to do with sentience. but true i can understand how you came to that conclusion, cultivated weapons do have a 'soul' to them. but that soul is not sentience but just an echo of the power of when it was use by others.

    as for sov items. true they are far more durable than highgod items but they also contain the power of a sovereign in them. just a tiny bit but it's there. and that power enhances their destructive and defensive abilities of the items so that they can easily destroy highgod items and kill highgods. so no they do not go after sov items for durability but the power they gain from them. how the hell you missed this part of the story is beyond me.  they never go 'man i wish i had a sov weapon so i wouldn't have to worry about it breaking', no they go 'if i had a sov weapon, i could have killed that bastard'. thats right, there goal is to kill with the weapon, not destroy or out last other peoples weapons. only with armors and soul protectors does durability matter.


    as for making bladeless a divine item. what the hell is your deal? what's all the hate for it? what did bladeless ever do to you to make you hate it so much? so what if linley makes bladeless an artifact, thats his choice. hell it's his choice if one day he finds a stick on the ground an for the hell of it turns it into a artifact because he damn well wants to.
  • I won't deny things if they are the truth. It's just that I don't find your reasoning and evidence convincing enough. Let me try to persuade you. Here's a passage:
    “Just now, I said that newly made divine artifacts are like infants, while those very powerful divine artifacts are like adults. Powerful divine artifacts possess their own spirits, and are naturally powerful. But since they are already ‘adults’, it will be very hard for them to truly acknowledge another master.”

    “Only after it has truly acknowledged you will you be able to utilize its full power.”

    Linley listened intently to these words.

    His adamantine heavy sword was most likely an ‘infant’ right now. He needed to spend time to nourish it and help it grow.

    As for Bloodviolet, it was already an ‘adult’ with a soul of its own. It wouldn’t so easily acknowledge him. Most likely, the person which Bloodviolet truly acknowledged was ‘that one’…the devilish, purple haired man who had nurtured it from an ordinary divine artifact to its current level of power.
    . . .
    “A divine artifact will be able to sense the love you bear it as well.”

    Muba laughed. “To put it simply, don’t treat it as a lifeless weapon. Treat it as you would a living creature. As time goes on, I imagine that the divine artifact will eventually acknowledge you.”

    This passage states that divine artifact has spirit/soul and can be considered an "adult" who can acknowledge a master. How is this not sentience. They have to be able to feel the user and they are aware of the experiences it went through. That's how they were created and how they acknowledge a master. Where is my misinterpretation? According to what you said, you just need to give it some energy fight with it and it will develop. In that case, what good is it to treat as a family member. If divine artifacts can sense the love, then they must have sentience.
    Btw, this is another problem. Nobody cares about their weapons and they don't seem to treat them as family member as they should. If their weapons break, they get mad but definitely not at the level where you would expect if their friends and family were killed. Would any of you expect Linley to go bonkers on the guy who breaks bladeless like when his wife almost died.
    Speaking of bladeless, I have no problem with it. I am just stating that it really makes no sense to bring it up cause it is far too sup-par. Even if bladeless is a sov artifact which I'm not sure if it is, it wouldn't be as useful as Linley dragonform or overgod weapon.

    As for the darkness example you gave. To be honest I'm not sure how that really relates to the idea of is there sentience or not. I mean I agree with you on that but I'm not sure what that's got to do with anything. There could still be sentience. My point is that if the weapon acknowledges you which it needs sentience for, then even if it's element is different, then there really shouldn't be that big of a problem using. Of course, using a light one still is better.

    Durability can play a big role in killing people. If you have a sword made steel vs one made of copper, the steel would win because it is more durable. It does not have some special magic effect that allows it win. The same can be said about the novel. There really is no mention of extra powers or anything that the weapons have. If my weapon can't be broken, then that means if I swing at you, you would be the broken one, unless you have a weapon that can match mines. Sov artifacts can't ever be broken by deities, this is an iron rule that is continuously stated. Why would they keep mentioning this if the durability of the weapons wasn't important? They never really mention anything about the power of sov artifacts. I'm pretty sure that all special effects around the weapon were the result of the user. If they did say so, could you give me some evidence.
  • i get where you're coming from, really. it's just that it's better to think of that 'spirit' as a ghost of a soul. it's not really sentient it's mearly an instinctual thing. even in real life there have been people who've said that items have had a soul to them and worked better for some people than others. but you wouldn't consider them sentient. besides. at highgod level. people are already so powerful they can forcefully command the weapons to do as they like. more so everyone has had those weapons for countless years so this aspect of rejection your looking for never has the chance to appear. and linley never took new weapons so again no chance for what you're wanting to appear. (mirage and the life overgod sword are 'blank' weapons, although beirut spent 100 years making it, all he did was fuse spark essense together, he didn't 'cultivate' it. as for the overgod sword, it was litterally made on the spot out of pure essense and had no time to be 'cultivated') to put it another way, the items don't think 'am i alive?', 'do i exist?', 'what's the meaning to life?', 'will this master love me?', hell they don't think at all. they mearly exist and when a new owner appears, there is disharmony between them. bloodviolet never tried to attack linley even thou linley was in no way worthy of using it, it never fought against linley. true linley couldn't use its true abilities but that was more to deal with harmonizing and lack of power.

    as for sov items. it was stated in that last book that sovs don't really care about the items they make. they just do it out of boredom. is no wonder highgods don't have to worry about having to adapt the weapons to themselves like they do divine items. and even if a sov item was made with care and given a 'spirit', the creator themselves has ordered the item to serve said highgod. so of course it's not going to reject them.

    regardless, no item besides the coiling dragon ring has ever shown any sentience. (and after linley took the blood essence that dissappeared too.) and other than blood violet, no divine item has had the chance to show it's 'spirit' since no one besides linley obtained a divine item so early and at such a weak point.  everyone else was already a saint at least. it also doesn't help that the story revolved around linley and nobody else was given any air-time.

    as for people not caring about their stuff. well they do. it's just that they can always make more of them. but they can't remake their wife, their child, their family. so you tell me, if you lost a sword you spend years on but can make another, would you really put it on the same level as the person you love who you can't get back if they die?
  • Then how do you suppose they are able to "sense the love you bear it" what is this then if it's not sentience.

    I get where you're coming from too. You're probably thinking along the lines of how are these things sentience if everyone can use them. In most cases, sentient weapons are capable of choosing their master, and those they deem unworthy can't even touch it. But in this novel, anybody can use any weapon. The only requirement to use its full power is to be the right level (highgod for highgod artifacts and sov for sov artifacts except you can't be an overgod) you can hardly call them sentient if anybody can take the weapon and nurture it for a while and they are the new master. However, I believe the author really did mean for them to be considered sentient, it just that he disregards them later in the novel and never got around to explaining them in more depth.

    Rejection has never occurred, true. This is probably another reason why you think they don't have sentience. But even if there is no rejection, the weapon still does not acknowledge just any one as its master. Well, it does but you still need to feed and nurture it except sov artifacts can't ever be the property of deities because they don't have sov power or enough spiritual power. And the reason why highgods can do what they want with their weapons is because they nurtured their weapons for so long. Forgot highgods, even demigods are capable of using even sov weapons to its full potential. It's just that their base power is too weak so they still can get killed by most highgods. The problem is that you are supposed to master the weapon to use its full potential, but that doesn't exist anymore. Linley was actually able to use every aspect of bloodviolet power despite being at the demigod level and has yet to make it acknowledge him as its master. This is based on the fact that Linley never learns anything new with it despite using it until he got mirage. So I think it matters not what level you are at. Even demigods and gods would rather have highgod artifacts then ones that they have nurtured for so long.

    Mirage and life overgod sword are blank but if Linley nurtures them, then mirage should turn into a sov artifact and the overgod weapon should at least acknowledge Linley as its master and maybe reduce some of the restrictions it has on Linley. These are the only ones that it would make no difference since they don't have sentience, I'll agree with you on that. But that's it, every other weapon should still have followed the sentience thing.

    If sov don't care about their weapons, then why go to the trouble of recollecting them. If an emissary dies then the sov would want its weapon back. If they truly didn't care then why not just leave it there and have some lucky guy get it. Can you find the passage that states that they don't care? If you do then this is another contradiction because it said that sov cared about their weapons because they spent trillions of years of effort of them.
    And highgods don't bother with adapting to them because the whole point is that they are unbreakable items. Since items don't reject them and they can never be true masters because they don't have sov power, then the only thing that matters is if it's hard enough. I already explained the durability thing. That's basically it. Who cares about making the weapon yours when it's already unbreakable. No one else can do it so it's not like you're going to be at a disadvantage just because you couldn't.

    I agree with the family thing. But it's the author who said that they are suppose to be treating their weapons like family not me. So they should be going berserk mode on the people who broke their weapons.

    You see Vexram, my entire argument is that the author is so lazy and stupid at times that he doesn't finish what he started and even changes things in the future. That's why there is this whole confusion about whether there is sentience or not. I'm pretty sure that the author meant for it to be a part of the weapon system. That's why he had the Linley and Muba conversation. But he completely disregards. The biggest problem is that Linley trains to fast. By 3000 years, he becomes a soul mutate who's even stronger than paragons. What good are weapons at that point. And then he goes on and just gives people the more durable weapon even if they can't ever fully sync with it. And none of the weapons are shown to use some sort of extra power. He showed and explained all this in the beginning but just became like "oh I don't want that anymore" and tosses it away. So yeah he made the weapon system pretty dull. If he had added all those things and elaborated on them, then weapons would have felt they made a difference. The way it is now, it makes no difference it you are using a sword or axe sov artifacts or different elements. They're all used for the same thing and were never differentiated. If the weapons are on the same level, then for that fight, they are nothing more than just decorations. Now if they had unique powers to them and actual sentience then that would force them to play a bigger role and be interesting. The author did not do this
  • well of course the sovereigns are going to collect their items even if they don't care about them. it's probably part of the rules sov's have about only gifting people 1 sov item. if they just left them, some random schmo would pick it up and then well, they probably learned this lesson the hard way. i seriously doubt all these people just came up with these rules on the spot.
  • I'm pretty sure that it was mentioned that sov retrieve the weapon because they don't want to lose something they spend trillions of years of time and effort on. Sure, they have unlimited lifespans and they almost never die, and have created plenty of artifacts, but they would want it back anyways. Just like how a highgod could just make another weapon for himself but still doesn't want to lose the current one. they often lose emissaries. So if they kept not retrieving them, then could potentially lose a lot. They can't remake them fast. Excluding beirut who isn't suppose to have one in 10000. Not sure how this happen. Maybe the rules play a role too. But I highly doubt it is a big part of it. The rules aren't governed by the overgods. The sov themselves establish and enforce it, meaning things can be quite lenient. I doubt anyone would really notice or even care about some sov artifacts missing unless things get out of hand.

    Nothing on anything else. Still thinking or can't find anything to refute or just don't care anymore?
  •  Nothing on anything else. Still thinking or can't find anything to refute or just don't care anymore?

    i just don't see any point in continuing on at this point. we've reached the end and still see things differently. there is nothing we can say to convince the other.


    look im not saying that sov's don't care about their items. im just saying that there's probably a rule that IET didn't mention or didn't specifically say was a rule that sov's have to go out of their way to collect the things.
  • Well, then I can at least say my argument that this is all the author's fault for not properly explaining things is right. He created all these confusions and just sped right through. Good thing he made it interesting enough that you don't really notice problems until you really think about it. What a shame, if he could at least clear up some of these contradictions and elaborate more on a few points. But, that's not happening. It was still a good read. And we all got our biases that lead us to think one way over another for the open-ended interpretations the author left us with. It was good while it lasted though.
  • Well, then I can at least say my argument that this is all the author's fault for not properly explaining things is right. He created all these confusions and just sped right through. Good thing he made it interesting enough that you don't really notice problems until you really think about it. What a shame, if he could at least clear up some of these contradictions and elaborate more on a few points. But, that's not happening. It was still a good read. And we all got our biases that lead us to think one way over another for the open-ended interpretations the author left us with. It was good while it lasted though.

    Just gonna say you shouldnt take everything someone say as true, for example Beirut discussing Paragons with Linley, he said that in the whole multiverse you can count paragons with one hand, later we discover this to be false

    How much can someone like Muba know? he is just a demigod and im with Vexram, artifacs dont have sentience as for Bloodviolet that was just the remanent aura of the bloodviolent fiend as for the secondary use, it was stated that was an incorrect way to use the profound mysteries 
  • hahah. yeah now that you remind me. it's funny as hell to think about. beirut said early on that there were at most 5 people would would be paragons in the vast multi-verse of the CD cosmos. then later we see 2 in the planar war, then 11 more when searching for the 3rd overgod talisman. and thats just the confirmed ones. thats not counting all the ones that probably exist but didn't show up. heh, and thats not even including all the sovereign paragons. (i think at least half of all sovereigns were paragons.)
  • El Vago

    Exactly, the author makes rules and statements in the beginning that he completely disregards later on in the novel, there are more then what you just named. I find this a major weakpoint in the story.

    Actually, it stated that there are only at most 10 sov who are also paragons. Probably has to do with the fact that they don't care anymore since their lives are safe since there really isn't any reason for other sov to kill them especially with the rules. And most, probably at least half of the sov are divine beast, this wasn't stated but it can be inferred so it would be difficult for them to be paragons, not impossible of course.

    Alright, I was going to stop the whole sentience argument thing but some want it to continue. Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, and experience which is basically using at least one of the senses. You can look up the definition yourself. Now Muba has said that divine artifacts are created through its experiences and is capable of sensing the love you bear it. You are also suppose to treat it like family. Now you tell me, if something does not have sentience, what's the point of treating it like family, it won't notice a thing. And it specifically stated that they can "sense" the love. They are created through "experiences." Notice those are the words that defines sentience.

    But as for the argument that one should not take Muba words seriously. Ok, there is a difference between this and others. Others, such as Beirut saying there are only few paragons or Resigem fusing 5 mysteries when he trains in destruction which isn't suppose to have any, are just small things the are breezed over and not really paid much attention to. There is an entire chapter dedicated to Linley and Muba conversation. This makes it harder to forget than something that was literally 5 words long or something so if the author wanted to disregard this then he should not have made an full chapters on it. Also, the facts stated in this conversation were somewhat proven over the rest of the story. Muba said that sov artifacts can be created from anything and probably takes very long time, which is backed by other statements excluding Beirut getting one in 10000. He saids your suppose to nurture it to get it to acknowledge you or create a new one, we see that highgods highly value their artifacts that they nurtured and created themselves like with that 7* fiend who got killed by the soul mutant in book 15. He says weaker artifact take shorter amounts of time while stronger takes longer, when Linley arrives to the infernal realm we know that a demigod artifact can be created in like 10000 years or something while highgods take at least million. Linley even agrees with just about everything Miba said. Since a lot of what Muba said was proven to be true, and Linley himself is taking his words into heart then I believe that Muba is reliable.

    As for secondary effects, it isn't that that's incorrect usage of the mysteries. The problem with it is that it only works with the artifact you are developing the attack or special effect with. If you use another, then it doesn't work. True, or rather better, use of the laws would be to master them raw and then be able to use them with any artifact or even none at all. But it was stated that it counts as a short term boost, because once you increase your laws then that attack becomes weaker. So, one should not be using it then. But I think that's not very smart. I agree that it's better to improve on your laws than your weapons specifically. But how long does it take to train in the laws? A ridiculously long amount of time if your name isn't Linley and a select few others. Most others are too slow, or at the final bottleneck which is too difficult to break. However, it doesn't seem too difficult or too time-consuming to develop some secondary effect with the weapons. If you know you are too slow or at the some bottleneck, why not invest in some time and effort to create such a move to increase your fighting capabilities somewhat. To break through a bottleneck require insight, but who knows when that's going to happen. But you can just get a secondary effect for your weapon until you break through. I don't see the issue with that. Perhaps, it might be impossible if you have a sov artifact because your powers are difference and it can't sync with you, but I don't get why others don't do so.
  • if a high quality highgod sword of slaughter and death can be picked up and used by weak ass warrior and not reject him or turn him into a slave to be used to slaughter and kill everything, it think it's safe to say that items never had sentience and were never intended to have sentience.

    thats my last and final arguement for this. take it or leave it. the fact is, you just took something really simple and exaggerated it too far. IET never intended for items to be sentient, what he was refering to was the common belief that a loved and cared for weapon will work better than a random weapon you don't care for. this is a real-life concept that warriors have had for probably as long as weapons have existed.
  • That doesn't explain all the stuff I mention. Even if that's true, it contradicts the stuff Muba said. But it's not like that would be the first time in this novel.

    Your final argument is actually invalid. Before Linley even became a saint, he tried testing out bloodviolet during the journey through the mountain range. He turned berserk and then slaughtered a pack of beasts. You sound like you didn't read this or forgot it but it did happen. So weapons can affect the user. In the beginning it did, but then author ditched it later on is what I'm arguing.

    I'm not exaggerating too far. This is a fantasy novel. I have read and seen a lot of animes to cartoons and all sorts of novels and books. It is a common (very common) theme or concept that items have sentience in fantasy. The whole idea of treating weapons like family is indeed a normal real life thing. But, it takes another step in fantasy novels where it explained that people do so because the weapons have feelings too. Most fantasy novels have sentient items, and can be fairly common too. In fact, it would be strange for this novel to be different. There really isn't any fantasy novels out there that has no concept of sentient items. In my opinion, it is odd for people to argue that there is no such thing as sentient items in a fantasy novel. What's wrong with with having them. There is something wrong with not having them though, it would be a waste of potential in fantasy novels not to have them. I'm pretty sure any good fantasy novel author would include it in as a major or at least a noticeable concept.
  • that was the baleful aura gained from slaughtering millions of beasts and humans. it's a remant left from the past. i told you before, it's best to think of it like a ghost of a soul. besides it's a HIGHGOD ARTIFACT!!!!! to only have that little effect and yet you want to call it sentient. might as well call a leaf in the wind a god then.

    if you want talking swords, you read the wrong story. i guess it's because i read ST first but what you're wanting never appeared in my mind. but whatever. i give up. you want talking flying swords. there are definitely some out there, dragon-blooded war god is one.
  • I'll have to check up on bloodviolet again for some confirmation.

    I admit that the whole sentience idea in this novel is pretty weak, but it still there. I don't mean for there to be talking swords just that the author introduced the idea but never really elaborated on it. This confused people to thinking that items don't have any sentience but I like I keep saying, IET is not very consistent and can be very contradictory in this novel. Everyone should know that by now. Take something from the later parts, and compare it from something early and you're bound to find some contradiction. Perhaps, there isn't any sentience cause there really isn't enough proof to say so in the latter half. But you can't deny that he definitely introduced and stated that there was in the beginning. I noticed nobody was able to attack my claims that Muba words heavily suggested, or even almost straight up said, that sentience existed.

    I never wanted talking swords. I just wanted this idea of sentience to be elaborated and play a bigger role. My primary argument was that weapons are too plain in this novel. When you really think about it, what good are weapons other than giving you a bit of a boost. They sometimes seem nothing more than just decorations to me. The laws, divine power, and spiritual energy does almost everything. The weapons are given little screen time. Think about it. Unless the weapons are vastly different from each other, they don't really contribute. If both players used it or they both don't, then the result is still the same. I mean it's kind of like sov might. 7* fiend vs a 6* fiend. The 7 wins, you give them both a sov weapon, the 7 still wins. This is different from like being divine beast which allows you to potentially fight roughly a level beyond your fusions. Weapons don't because at the same level, everybody has the same weapon grade. Now if weapons were more than just durability like the whole idea that sentience is legit and contributes to how much power of weapon you can use (novel does a poor job of explaining exactly how much weaker you use a weapon if it doesn't acknowledge you) then just because both fighters use a same grade weapon does not automatically mean that the 7 will still win. The weapon system feels too bland and tasteless to me and elaborating things such as sentience would have made them more interesting and play a larger role.
  • sadly by the time sentience could have played a role it was already an obsolete idea. what does it matter if a weapon is sentient when it doesn't matter? it's not like the enemy's weapon is just gonna go 'ah hell no boss, thats a sov item, i'm out *runs away*'. besides im pretty sure the entire time IET was just trying to point out the best way to bring out the maximum ability in weapons and not just use them with brute force. but thats the way i took. everyone reads things differently.

    but still i suppose it's IET's fault for bouncing around so much. but then again this is what you'll get when you have people who put out chapters daily without the chance to make sure nothing contradicts or if you forgot something. besides. IET does well enough that their aren't any major issues, besides endings and romance. not like with MGA where chu feng goes from humble nice guy to badboy rapist in 1 chapter. the fact that it wasn't explained made it even worse. i was blindsided when that happened.
  • It could have played a role is what I'm saying. I mean the weapons should have sentience and therefore should have unique personalities and traits like special abilities is very common in the idea. But the author just skipped over it

    As for MGA, yeah that didn't really make sense. And to make it worse, apparently that was all it took for sou rou to fall in love with him. But in all honesty, I'm not trying to defend rape or anything, but for some strange reason, it isn't a completely random idea that apparently raping a girl is all you need or heavily leads to the girl falling in love for you. I have seen this happen a few times so at least this is kind of understandable. Is it bad, definitely but not completely out of the blue. Now Linley and Delia feel more out of the blue and strange then that. If any of you want to know what I'm talking about, you can just check out my other discussion thread about "everything wrong with cd" nobody has been able to really prove me wrong that Delia really shouldn't be in love with Linley so fast and that most of Linley's relationships are very underdeveloped.
  • edited December 2015
    Sentience is definitely out there we have the proof in the coiling dragon ring, i dont know if you already discuss this im to lazy to read the entire conversation

    Book 17 chapter 18: “Your body is so powerful, you definitely absorbed a drop of distilled blood essence. However, where did that drop you absorbed come from?” Gislason continued, “When our ancestor created those Sovereign artifacts, in order to make the Sovereign artifacts possess semi-sentience, he dripped a single drop of his blood essence into them.”

    I found this while reading CD again, so semi-sentience but thanks to a drop of blood essence, not only sovereing blood but the blood of a unique divine beast so just with this is easy to asume that making an arifact posses sentience is not easy thing

    On another note what about this? 

    “Our ancestor had two Sovereign artifacts. One was a weapon-type Sovereign artifact, while the other was a soul-protecting Sovereign artifact. Because I already know where the weapon-type Sovereign artifact is, thus I was certain that the Sovereign artifact you were carrying could only possibly be that soul-protecting Sovereign artifact…the Azure Dragon ring.”

    I think it was never mentioned the location of the weapon type artifact 
  • Thanks, a legit statement that sentience exists. But some would make still make the argument that most don't have sentience since it seems that only a sov can do so and only half at that. Well, it could be another issue like edicts don't have mysteries but resigem is said to fuse 5. Maybe the author intended for all to have them but only meant that the coiling dragon ring is stronger in this aspects. But that's over now.
    Another thing is that we can't completely assume that creating sentience is that hard. There's nothing in there that said only divine beasts could do so. It could be just be that it requires a sov blood drop, not necessarily a divine beast's. Or maybe sov isn't necessary either. In this part we can only speculate, assuming it's true and we agree with it. Even if that passage was written by the author that states the possible rarity and difficulty of making sentience, it doesn't change the fact that he made an entire chapter talking about sentience was so easy to create way early on. For the record, since Muba had an entire chapter talking about it, I find it more believable than the patriarch's few sentence mention. Just like how no one now believes Beirut's words that there are only a few paragons in existence.

    As for the weapon, why mention it? Some lucky emissary now has it. I mean other people are just going to say that since it has no relevance to the story then there's no point in adding it in. But you're welcome to ask about it. Just like how I keep asking for a 3 way soul mutant that was mentioned more times than that weapon but we still didn't get it so that weapon is never gonna show. But it does beg the question of doesn't the sov have any more than just 2. What if he is in need of a new emissary or just want to trade sov artifact or is required to give it to a planar war commander who got the necessary badges. 2 does not cover all that and sov weapons are suppose to take a long time making them so he can't make them in the spot. As he has lived a very long time, he should have plenty. I mean what else does a sov do if he isn't making a sov artifact. Overgod missions take forever to come again and most sov don't research to get stronger like orloff. Heck it doesn't seem like they try very hard to reach paragon level.
    When you really think about it, there is no way any of the sov can't be a paragon unless you're new like Beirut. Now, if we are analyzing how long it takes to reach paragonhood, we only know that a million years or less is suppose to be impossible and that most commander level people are at their billions or even more. Let's just say that a really talented person who gets a bit lucky takes about a trillions years or something. Most sov are surpass that age. Furthermore, they have the advantage of creatin planes which is a very good way of getting insights. As if that isn't enough, they also got faith energy, collected over countless years with countless amounts of people. Maybe not all sov got this but most should and definitely the radiant sov does but he still ain't at paragon. Now I know that a lot of the sov happen to be divine beast or some special life form that makes reaching the paragon stage difficult. But it's not impossible as we see that the chief destruction sov is one, but he is the oldest being but still. There are only around 10 sov who are paragons. What? When you really think about, paragons should not be that rare at all. But the problem is that most are too stupid or get too lazy in the end.
  • hahaha, man, xianxiafan, you totally reminded me of that. i we've had arguements about whether the 4 edicts have mysteries and people and i suppose even IET has said so but then IET stats that reisgem has fused 5. that means that edicts do have mysteries. so suck it people. suck it hard. muahahahaha. SUCK IT!!!!

    as for giving weapons sentience, while it doesn't seem all that easy, it also doesn't seem to hard to do. all you have to do is sacrifice some blood essense (which by the way is limited to about 300 drops according to IET) and fuse it into the item. it's not specifically stated that you have to be a soveriegn for this (i don't think anyway) but considering the price one would have to pay (a drop of blood-essense), it doesn't seem worth it to do so for a divine item.

    it's not stated whether others have done this as well, and truthfully it doesn't really seem to matter all that much. other than making sure that the true power of the item can only be used by selected people it doesn't seem to do much else. aside from helping every now and then.

    as for the other items the 4dbc should of had. either beirut or augustus took them. simple as that. as for why they we're mentioned or handed out, probably just another oversite by IET in his mad rush to the end.

    as for paragons. becoming a paragon is both extremely simple and extremely complex. the stronger your base is, the harder it is to become a paragon. thats why beirut/augustus/death&life chief sovs/ect haven't reached paragon even with all that help gained from faith energy. because they are already so strong becoming a paragon is just that much harder. (this was all stated by IET) that's why so many sovereigns still aren't paragons.

    also calling people stupid or lazy for not become a paragon is just wrong, becoming a paragon is simple sure (all you have to do is fuse all the mysteries) but it's not easy. it requires lots of luck and enlightenment.
  • The edicts were a big contradiction for the author mainly because the author himself had no clue where he wanted to head with it. Sorry to burst your bubble Vexram, but edicts don't have mysteries. Yes, resigem was stated to fuse 5 mysteries. But contradictions and inconsistencies are normal in this novel. What I tend to do is accept the one that makes the most logical sense and matches majority of what we've seen (that's why I argued for sentience since its seems very logical to me) resigem fusing 5 was the only hint or evidence to support edicts having mysteries but there is a lot more that suggests otherwise. First, it was explicitly stated that edicts don't have mysteries(read when dunnington comes during book 17) second, no edict was given a mention of any mystery whereas all the others had a few listed off except lightning but as lightning is a "law" and not an "edict" we can include it as part of ones that have mysteries. Third, there is no destruction Linley. Some might go "how does this support edicts having no mysteries?" Simple, IET didn't know what to do with the edicts if he isn't giving them mysteries. He deliberately gave no screen time to any edicts to focus on how they train so of course he didn't know what to do with Linley so he ditched destruction in the end. Basically, edicts have no mysteries and resigem was a typo or mistake.

    The artifacts could've been taken when the 4DB died, true. But the dragon patriarch specifically said that his father only had 2. I imagine that he wouldn't say that unless he really knew and that was before his fathers death so . . .

    It's not the stronger the base, the harder it is, but the stronger the innate gifts, the harder it is. Your base can be strong, but if you didn't get that innately it doesn't count. For example, the wind sov that Linley killed. Normal human, who then became sov but still managed to reach paragon afterwards because he's one of the few who still cares. So just because you become a sov and get a strong base does not mean it becomes harder to become a paragon. In fact it becomes a lot easier with all the advantages you have. People are just god damn lazy when they reach such a level that they don't ever reach paragon despite quadrillions of years or so.

    Paragons are overrated in my opinion. By that, I mean how difficult it is to become one and not how strong they are. I'm not going to judge everyone as stupid or talentless based off of Linley cause that's not fair. But I believe that becoming a paragon really isn't that difficult and there should definitely be more.
    Virtually everyone fused mysteries after they have reached highgod level. This is very heavily implied. Doing so takes forever to reach paragon. If some of those people started fusing earlier, there would have been a lot more. But everybody is stupid. Yes, if they didn't know they can't be blamed (well they can be partly because Linley managed to fuse without knowledge of its possibility) but they can tell their children. How is it that the children of big clans or especially sovs not paragons. They lived for countless years. If they start fusion from the get go, I don't see why they aren't paragons already. In my opinion, this is the biggest issue with why there isn't a lot of paragons. It makes sense and doesn't at the same time. Fusing takes too long, even in the early stages, so people tend to forsake that in exchange to become the next deity level as soon as possible, especially if your in the infernal realm where you can die fast if not strong enough. But that's no excuse for the young gen of major clans and powers. They're just idiots who don't tell them that fusing early on is trillions of times better than reaching highgod as fast as possible.
    And people are lazy, the sovs that is. The wind sov who is relatively new, at least it sounded like he was, still became one of the 10 paragons in all the 77 sovs. What does that mean for the others who lived longer, and had faith energy. If they're not lazy, who is? And the chief death sov admitted that she doesn't have the patience to train to paragonhood despite being one of the oldest beings in existence. She's got no excuse except being too lazy to take the time and train when she got more spare time than the likes of Linley ever did even if you raised his current life by the trillionth power.

    As for needing luck and enlightenment for fusing. If you know that you want to fuse the mysteries then you will wait and train until you do and it will happen especially if you got talent which major clans descendants should. It's not a big excuse for why you don't have your children start fusing early. No matter what they will fuse, sooner or later only that later is raised by power for every year you waste not completing it so early is way better.
  • Does linley ever get baptized by his clan in infernal realm??
    Also which book/chapter??
    Thanks
    A Hero Without Equal....A Lonely King


  • Book 17 is all about the 4DBC. As for the chapter, it's within the first 10 I believe.
  • when i said stronger base i was refering to the innate gifts of people, xianxiafan. being a sov has no effect on becomeing a paragon (i'm refering to being a sovering, not the massive quantities of faith energy gained).


    as for using the 'they are idiots for not fusing since the beginning'. let me point this out. linley himself gave up on that plan, because in the higher realms, being a highgod is more important than fusing laws. so what if you're a god who's fused 5 out of 6 laws when a highgod who's maybe only fused 3 can pwn your ass. true though, the 4dbc could have done this, then hey wouldn't have needed linley to bail them out, but still. it's a matter of thinking long term and hoping you can live that long or thinking short term and living long enough to face the effect of your decision. (basically become highgod now, live long enough to become a paragon, or~~~ stay a god and try and fuse all mysteries in 1 go and hope you don't die)
  • Actually fusing 5 mysteries as a god would give you power rivaling a 7* person. Linley was suspected of being this type. In fact Linley was even stronger than average, so fusing 5 as a god would still make you very strong overall in any realm.

    There is no problem with surviving. You're a member of a big clan, just have bodyguards and such protecting you. No big deal to survive, and so what if a few does die. A 100 7* level fighters dying is still worth it to have just 1 paragon. If they can produce 1 paragon, it would be worth it to have some potentially powerful young people die. There really is no reason why there doesn't appear to be anyone who started fusion early who isn't related to Linley. Everyone is just stupid. No matter how you think about, fusing early is way better than later. If you are worried about not being strong enough to survive early on then you were destined to never be a paragon with that kind of weak mindset.

    And fusing is more important than being a highgod. The power gained from fusing even as a god can more than just being a regular highgod. Of course, that's saying you can successfully fuse to begin with. Linley had no reason to stop fusing. It made no sense that he stops fusing after his earth clone reached highgod. He made 1 fusion afterwards before becoming a sov. But he made no further improvements in either wind or water when they are just as good and even better than earth. Reaching highgod in either of those 2 would have made no big contribution to his overall power so he didn't need to reach it as soon as possible. He could have spent time fusing. But what happened was the author grew lazy and didnt want to put much effort. So what he did was take the easy route to make Linley stronger, make him a soul mutant. This effectively got rid of the need to fuse any mysteries other than across the laws. The author probably had no clue what other fusion an mysteries he could have used for Linley so he took this shortcut. It really sucked because I wanted a full list of all mysteries and possible fusions abilities.
  • im glad you can so easily take the long run path. hope you're not one of those 100 sacrificed to be a paragon. amazing how you think so many people in this world are selfless and willing to risk it all for others.

    and true a god with 5/6 fused mysteries could deal with most situations, but don't forget that linley was one serious cheat mofo. he had a sovereign soul protecting artifact, an inheirent high soul defense, and a strong body. he had a lot of advantages that most won't have. and more than that. don't forget, even if a god has fused 5/6 mysteries, he's still just a god. 7* highgods can easily kill such a person as long as there isn't plot armor on them.

    oh and another thing. is seemed easy to fuse laws for linley but he had a lot of help and luck. having a bunch of enlightement in he heat of battles he only survived because of plot armor. so you're extremely possitive estimate of 100 7*'s for 1 paragon is way off the mark. add at least 3-6 more zero's to that and maybe you start getting closer to a realistic estimate.

    as for linley's reason to stop fusing and rush to highgod. IET explained it clearly. his god soul was not powerful enough. the difference between a god and highgod's soul was just too great, not only that but linley's god soul was maxed out, he couldn't get any stronger quickly.
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