Regarding Houyi, Timeline and Seamless Gate

So in the recent chapters of Desplate Era, Houyi reveals himself as a disciple of Subhuti. It's also shown that he seems to have quite a few connections with the members of the Seamless Gate, addressing Windfiend by his name, as opposed to Lord of all Fiends (which was how he was referred to by all but the Seamless Gate's top group), the name given AFTER the war which ended the Primordial World.

I had previously believed that the clash of the Pangu and Seamless worlds was what caused the end of the Primordial Era and the start of the Three Realms. Houyi had shown himself by killing the Golden Crows and afterwards disappeared before the start of the Three Realms. So he and the Seamless Gate know each other yet he disappeared before the start of the Three Realms and didn't participate in the war...

So this all leads to a few possibilities:
The people of the Seamless and Pangu Worlds lived together and got to know each other before the war that ended the Primordial World? Possible as we have a short time frame where he roamed the Primordial World (source states as a True God though, not Daofather. B13C11).

Houyi went to the Seamless Gate before being apprenticed to Subhuti. This theory has a bit of backing, as to how he refers to Windfiend and how Devilhand greets him seemingly familiar with him.

In the end, it's all pretty confusing to me. IET's known for his plotholes, but this one has bothered me a bit more than the rest (besides maybe two headed silver dragon lol).

It would be interesting to see what you guys make of this.


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Comments

  • If im not mistaken Samless Gate killed his Dao companion.
  • TDDM said:
    If im not mistaken Samless Gate killed his Dao companion.
    Mistaken
  • I think his Dao companion is alive, just mind controlled
    “But I don’t want to go among mad people" Alice remarked
    "Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
  • Chang'e is sealed on the Lunar Star. Hence why he is learning the Dao of the Axe, so he can chop down the divine tree sealing her. I'm unsure if Seemless Gate have anything to do with that.
  • LigerCero said:
    Chang'e is sealed on the Lunar Star. Hence why he is learning the Dao of the Axe, so he can chop down the divine tree sealing her. I'm unsure if Seemless Gate have anything to do with that.
    The hell you talking about?

    She is mind controlled by Old Man Yuan so he could mess with Houyi's heart so as to control him as well during his moment of weakness
    “But I don’t want to go among mad people" Alice remarked
    "Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
  • Are you talking spoilers? Or what the story has revealed so far from translations?
  • LigerCero said:
    Chang'e is sealed on the Lunar Star. Hence why he is learning the Dao of the Axe, so he can chop down the divine tree sealing her. I'm unsure if Seemless Gate have anything to do with that.
    The hell you talking about?

    She is mind controlled by Old Man Yuan so he could mess with Houyi's heart so as to control him as well during his moment of weakness
    “I heard that long ago, because of Chang’e, our eldest apprentice-brother actually slaughtered a path to the Lunar Star, planning to chop down the osmanthus tree on the Lunar Star. However, whenever he struck at the tree, it would immediately reheal. No matter what he did, he couldn’t chop the tree down. At Mount Innerheart, our eldest apprentice-brother spends all his days chopping down trees…is it because he plans to once more pay a visit to the Moon Palace of the Lunar Star?” The Monkey King lowered his voice and even went so far as to block out sound from the surrounding area."

    Chapter 29 of the book 21. Sun Wu Kong's quote.
  • I thought this was already explained, but here's a brief. 

    At first, Pangu Chaos World and Seamless Chaos World were separate entities. They were on a collision course, and thus naturally they waged war on who would get to dominate the new world once it came to be. An external factor known as Lord of All Things came from somewhere. This guy sought to eliminate everyone, but Nuwa became a World God... and Seamless gate suffered defeat after the King was forced to merge with heavenly Dao. But the Seamless Gate escaped, but were ALLOWED to live in the newly birthed Three Realms. 

    IET never suggested Seamless gate was a foreign enemy. In fact, ramnants of the Lord of All Things were discovered by Ji Ning outside three realms the first time he was cast out by the world hold pagoda.

    So there existing friendship between two parties of both sides is extremely likely as they both lived in the same place.
  • I stopped reading translation from before the war started in his world.

    I'm basing it off mtl and the end of the war and what I interpreted from the mtl. Mtl is hard so I might be wrong but its basically what I said up there.
    “But I don’t want to go among mad people" Alice remarked
    "Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
  • edited January 8
    Lowlav said:
    I thought this was already explained, but here's a brief. 

    At first, Pangu Chaos World and Seamless Chaos World were separate entities. They were on a collision course, and thus naturally they waged war on who would get to dominate the new world once it came to be. An external factor known as Lord of All Things came from somewhere. This guy sought to eliminate everyone, but Nuwa became a World God... and Seamless gate suffered defeat after the King was forced to merge with heavenly Dao. But the Seamless Gate escaped, but were ALLOWED to live in the newly birthed Three Realms. 

    IET never suggested Seamless gate was a foreign enemy. In fact, ramnants of the Lord of All Things were discovered by Ji Ning outside three realms the first time he was cast out by the world hold pagoda.

    So there existing friendship between two parties of both sides is extremely likely as they both lived in the same place.
    Yeah, but what the recent chapters implied was that the people from Seamless World and the Pangu World were friendly with each other before the war which resulted in the Three Realms. I understand that the members of the Seamless Gate and the Three Realms lived together for quite some time after that war, yet Houyi had disappeared BEFORE the Three Realms was created (B21C29).
  • I stopped reading translation from before the war started in his world.

    I'm basing it off mtl and the end of the war and what I interpreted from the mtl. Mtl is hard so I might be wrong but its basically what I said up there.
    The hell you talking about?

    She is mind controlled by Old Man Yuan so he could mess with Houyi's heart so as to control him as well during his moment of weakness
    Also, I didn't really want spoilers as this is a non spoiler forum. Tidbits from later in the story tend to raise more plot holes as well. 
  • From the translation it seems that the Seemless world had no relation with the Primordial Chaos world. The worlds were seperated by light years of primordial chaos that held untold dangers and were for, the most part, unexplored. It wasn't until the two worlds began their collision that the forces met. So no, they were not associated with one another before hand, but the war that they had took place a very long time ago, not to mention the Three Realms universe is quite old as well. Even though they had no association before hand, they still know of each other through combat and the subsequent "peace" that was formed after the leader of Seamless World fused into the heavenly daos. 

    If you have ever read warring novels/mangas like Kingdom, you'd notice that even enemy generals that kill one another's brothers on the battlefield will share drinks of wine and be quite intimate with each other in peaceful times. It's the familiarity that comes with combat and respect for the others skill. It's not like they were friends, they are just cordial with each other as a sign of respect.
  • Jin Mori said:
    Lowlav said:
    I thought this was already explained, but here's a brief. 

    At first, Pangu Chaos World and Seamless Chaos World were separate entities. They were on a collision course, and thus naturally they waged war on who would get to dominate the new world once it came to be. An external factor known as Lord of All Things came from somewhere. This guy sought to eliminate everyone, but Nuwa became a World God... and Seamless gate suffered defeat after the King was forced to merge with heavenly Dao. But the Seamless Gate escaped, but were ALLOWED to live in the newly birthed Three Realms. 

    IET never suggested Seamless gate was a foreign enemy. In fact, ramnants of the Lord of All Things were discovered by Ji Ning outside three realms the first time he was cast out by the world hold pagoda.

    So there existing friendship between two parties of both sides is extremely likely as they both lived in the same place.
    Yeah, but what the recent chapters implied was that the people from Seamless World and the Pangu World were friendly with each other before the war which resulted in the Three Realms. I understand that the members of the Seamless Gate and the Three Realms lived together for quite some time after that war, yet Houyi had disappeared BEFORE the Three Realms was created (B21C29).
    Three-Realms formed as a result of two celestial massess ramming into each other, right? This was natural course of action, and the speed of collision wasn't that large. I'd assume the war they are referring to is a sort of Endwar, but it wasn't why three realms formed. The war happened to decide who would dominate three realms. 

    I think the implication here is that there was a war that marked the end of the 2 chaos worlds and the forming of a brand new one. The result we know, Seamless Gate was forced to retreat, but they weren't chased out of three realms, rather allowed to remain somewhere within it.

    This could explain why many people of both seamless gate and nuwa alliance had been friends. In fact, the people in Lake Undermoon never differentiated between Seamless Gate & Nuwa Alliance, as they never even took part in that war.
  • Yes, as I've said multiple times, I understand that the people of the Pangu World and Seamless World lived in cohabitation after the war which ended the two worlds and began the Three Realms. 

    What I've been trying to say is that prior information about Houyi makes no sense with these new additions to the timeline (debate about whether or not they lived together before collision). Previously it was told that Houyi disappeared sometime in the Primordial Era (before Three Realms formed), yet he's familiar with members of the Seamless Gate. Again, this implies that the Pangu World and Seamless World were friendly with each other FAR before the two worlds converged.

    This makes even less sense, as that's akin to Voldemort He who must not be named and Hogwart's forces going to chill for a butterbeer before they fight, or Sauron going to hang out with the wizards of Middle Earth for a while. After each respective group discovered that they were on a collision path, they were two opposing forces who know that they're going to have to fight to the death in a gruesome battle. So why the hell did they trust the other side enough for Houyi to go over (or people of the Seamless World) and hang out?
  • If you read book 19 chapter 1-3 you will get a history of the Three Realms and the Primordial Realm. There was no contact between the two worlds before their war. The God Rahu was the first outsider that they ever met. Then after they fought him the Seamless world met theirs and the fighting began. 

    There was no contact before this. It is written in chapter 3 explicitly. 
  • “Time flowed on, and countless eras went by.”

    “Finally…yet another storm arrived.” Subhuti said solemnly, “Countless major powers, including both Mother Nuwa and myself, sensed an incomparably powerful force drawing close to our primordial world. Thus…we went into the primordial chaos, moving towards that force to investigate it.”

    “After travelling through the primordial chaos for more than half a month…we finally discovered what that force was!” A hint of grief and pain could be seen in Subhuti’s eyes.

    Ning and Redsnow both continued to listen carefully.

    “It was an absolutely massive, ellipsoid world…a chaosworld that was almost the same as our Pangu’s World!” Subhuti said heavily.

    “What?!”

    “A chaosworld, just like Pangu’s World?!”

    Ning and Redsnow both called out in shock.

    Subhuti looked at the two of them. “Since Pangu was able to cleave apart the primordial chaos to establish Heaven and Earth in creating his Pangu’s World…why wouldn’t there be others within the infinite primordial chaos that could do the same?”

    Ning and Redsnow were instantly rendered speechless.

    “That other world also had its Elder Gods! However, in order to differentiate them from us, we referred to them as Fiends. We called them Elder Fiends, True Fiends, and Empyrean Fiends!” Subhuti said heavily, “As for that world itself..we referred to it as the Seamless Chaosworld.”

    “Seamless Chaosworld?” Both Ning and Redsnow were stunned.

    Seamless?

    Seamless Gate?

    “Right. The modern ‘Seamless Gate’ originated from the Seamless Chaosworld.” Subhuti nodded. “The Seamless Chaosworld and our Pangu’s Chaosworld…these two chaosworlds were continuing to move through the primordial chaos, drawing closer and closer to each other. There would come a day in which the two chaosworlds would smash into each other.”


    Book 19 Chapter 3

  • edited January 13

    re-posted due to internet messing up. ignore this box :)

  • @LigerCero ;

    Ahh, alright.

    That means my second theory would be supported (i.e, Houyi went to the Seamless Gate after the Three Realms was created).

    Which is stranger as no one else knew of Houyi's reemergence after his initial disappearance, meaning Houyi went exclusively to them without anyone knowing. 

    Pretty interesting if this was meant to be or another one of IET's (many) plotholes.
  • No, it doesn't mean that.

    It was written that the major powers knew he was on the Lunar Star trying to free his wife, Chang'e. He then went to Daofather Subhuti as an apprentice, hence eldest brother woodcutter. The Seamless world at this point was still somewhere in the chaos, but we don't know of the exact time Rahu showed up and Hou Yi's disappearance.

    At no point is there a mention of friendship between the two sides. They have only tried to kill one another. You are trying to save face, but just because you want something that way doesn't mean it was or could be that way. The novel clearly has indicated that your theory is incorrect.

     Also they cant train together. They have a different set of heavenly daos. So they would only fight to train and Hou Yi literally said himself that he was with Subhuti before the War and has gone no where else.

    The only place that has Seamless Gate and Primordial Chaos practitioners living "peacefully" (not in a situation of all out war just in separate camps that kill one another occasionally) is in Under Moon Lake. And even then, the Seamless Gate gods are still killing off the Chaos gods whenever they can.

    Theory crafting is fine and all, but read the book man. You are barking up the wrong tree on this. If you find a text from the novel to support your claim please post it, but don't try to use something that proves you wrong as say "see that makes my point" when it clearly doesn't.
  • As for how they know of Hou yi, that is solved by the fact that the Seamless Gate knows everything. Big Boss is merged into the Heavenly Daos and they have a information network throughout the entire Three Realms. So they more than likely Soul Scoured a few Chaos world natives and learned of Hou Yi's expliots before his disappearance. Hence why they have no idea of his capabilities after his apprenticeship to Subhuti. Whom keeps to himself in his own world that is only accessible to him thanks to his mastery over space-time.

    Read Book 21 Chapter 29. They speak of a little about how they have no idea how strong Hou Yi is now, and that's because the last bit of info they got about him was before he disappeared. Which, once again, was before the two realms met. Think of the realms as Galaxies and the worlds in them are planets. The distance between two Galaxies is nothing to sniff at. There was no transit, communication, or friendship between the two parties, as shown in Book 19 Chapter 3, since the two sides had yet to learn of the others existence. 
  • @LigerCero ;

    Yeah, but he but the little conversation he had with the Seamless Gate wasn't a "Oh so you're Houyi, we've heard of you."

    Rather, he directly addressed Windfiend by his given name, not that commonly known by others and they also directly address him as "Houyi"
    (Book 21 Chapter 27).

    Also, its nice returning to the Wuxiaworld forums and being able to have a nice discussion like this :D
  • @"Jin Mori" 

    He is only known as woodcutter while apprenticed to Subhuti but no one knows his capability or origin. They then guess he is Hou Yi cause he is the only person that could be as strong as Devilhand and not known to them. It was literally a guess that they confirmed after asking if he was Hou Yi. Also knowing someones name doesn't mean you know them intimately. I could guess some guy at my local bar singing karaoke with a voice like silk is Usher. If he says yes does that mean I knew him intimately?

    Also, everyone knows his name is Windfiend because he was originally the second in command like Devilhand. They just call him the lord of all fiends as a sign of respect to their leader now that big boss man fused into the Heavenly Dao and he is in charge. Which is why Devil hand is the only person on the seamless side to call him by name. They were rank equals and are equals in strength, so they refer to each other by name. 

    Another excuse that Coiling Dragon and Desolate Era used a lot to explain stuff was the memory and intelligence of Cultivators. They thought about the situation and came to the conclusion that it was Hou Yi through a number of factors as fast as possible. Power Level, what Daos he used(I still don't get how everyone can figure out what Dao you practice after one fight or blow but that is IET's style sadly), fighting style, build, facial features, etc. (I.E. It took a while to describe but it happened in a second. or Although it took a while to say the conversation took less than a second thanks to them being Gods.CD with Linley and Bebe talking through divine sense.) Hyper fast thinking and amazing memory leads to their conclusion of his identity. Frankly speaking, he was the last OP guy left that could fight Devilhand. They knew where all the other ones were so it was a logical guess. Though it is suspect that the thought process behind the guess wasn't shown so it can lead to random tangents in thought, but at the end of the day it more than likely was that they guessed through the process of elimination than some other theory. There are no other clues that point to anything else. Although this part is pure inference off of information of multiple works and the authors writing style so it is indeed fallible. Though it is more than likely correct due to it being confirmed in his other works like Stellar Transformation and Coiling Dragon.

    IET isn't one to make secret plots like that. He would straight up write that Hou Yi went some where other than to Subhuti to explain things. If he doesn't say something close to "he explored the seamless world", then more than likely it didn't happen. I've read too many stories at this point. The only writer that has very few odd things that I pick up on is Er Gen. The dude is too good.
  • No one knows Houyi became Subhuti's disciple before or after killing the said Daofather. And we practically have nothing that states the daofather was of 3 realms or Seamless Gate, nor we have any reason to believe Houyi killed him for a personal reason. Whichever it is, its certainly why he disappeared into oblivion.
  • @Lowlav The Daofather was of neither the 3 Realms nor the Seamless Gate.

    It's been stated many times that he killed a Daofather of the Pangu Godworld during the Primordial Era.
  • I say we go get banana creme pancakes with pecan syrup and sausage on the side. Who's with me?
  • LigerCero said:
    I say we go get banana creme pancakes with pecan syrup and sausage on the side. Who's with me?
    Pancakes sound pretty good right about now!

    and the two headed silver dragon was DEFINITELY part of a secret plot
  • LigerCero said:

    At no point is there a mention of friendship between the two sides. They have only tried to kill one another. You are trying to save face, but just because you want something that way doesn't mean it was or could be that way. The novel clearly has indicated that your theory is incorrect.

     Also they cant train together. They have a different set of heavenly daos. So they would only fight to train and Hou Yi literally said himself that he was with Subhuti before the War and has gone no where else.

    The only place that has Seamless Gate and Primordial Chaos practitioners living "peacefully" (not in a situation of all out war just in separate camps that kill one another occasionally) is in Under Moon Lake. And even then, the Seamless Gate gods are still killing off the Chaos gods whenever they can.

    I won't touch the majority of this debate. I will however wade in on this one point.  Nuwa people and Seemless Gate people have in many cases been friends, lived together, and traded techniques/skills.  It came up in a number of places in the last 30ish chapters.  As an example there were 1 or 2 Nuwa people who were pained to be dealing with Wood something (sorry I suck with names) of Seamless Gate.  They had become very good friends.  All of this happened within the 3 Realms AFTER the previous war with their world.  Essentially when they let Seamless Gate continue to exist within the 3 realms, some of them tried to get along and succeeded.  The leaders of both sides kept secrets and made plans just in case they all went head to head again one day.

  • If you went over to SG or traded with them you were considered a traitor to the 3 realms. There were no mass friendship attempts written about. Old man Yuan, Evergreen, and whatever other individuals that went over were considered traitors the second the relation between the two was discovered. They hate each other. It's like how India kinda carries scars and resentment against Great Britain. That's with generations of people not being under the rule, now in this situation the people whom fought are still alive and hate each other. 

    Please find this reference and site it. Cause I honestly don't recall this. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but the two sides as of the past 100 chapters have been at war. So where is this Dealing with Wood something coming from? Unless you are talking about them fighting and hating having to go against his moves, cause that would be Everwood. A pacifist on the SG side that has good controlling/binding techniques.
  • edited February 11
    I do not have the patience to go back through a hundred chapters looking for small references, Im sorry.
    Yes, Everwood is the person that I meant in that particular reference.
    If you go back to just before Everwood came into conflict with the Nuwa Alliance, it's either him or a couple of the Nuwa people that are lamenting the fact that they have to go to war as they were friends.
    There are a few comments throughout when our hero is being told about why some of SG have Nuwa skills/abilities and vice versa where he is told that they have traded through the ages.

    This whole 'traitor' thing until the recent tensions came up was only in regards to those who joined SG, not to those that were just friends with them.
    I'll stop now as I can't think of any other particular moments that stand out.  All I can say is there are several where they talk about the interconnections between the 2 sides.  Sorry I don't have the patience to go back through and find the references and cite them for you.

    Edit:You said 'mass friendship'.  I'll agree with that point.  The way it read was all individuals, no cases of 'mass' anything.  At least in what I remember.
  • I just want the text linked so I can be proved wrong. If I don't recall something I just assume I missed it and want to see it so I can revise my thoughts. Until I see it I basically am under the assumption that I could be wrong but probably am not. Not trying to sound like a dick. It sounds dickish but I don't have any douchey intent. Just making my case.

    Once again if I'm wrong please correct me. 

    The Everwood reference may be off. He lived a hermit lifestyle and barely communicated with SG folks let alone the 3R people. I'm unsure as to his standpoint on the Three Realms.
    http://www.wuxiaworld.com/desolate-era-index/de-book-21-chapter-22/, this may be the first mentioning of Everwood and his nature. There is no mention of him being friends with anyone on the enemy side(3R side) and he steels his resolve to show no mercy. Them(3R side) saying they don't want to fight him is not from friendship. It has to do with the fact that he is strong and uses hard to counter techniques, much like Devilhand. One is a Ki-Refiner and the latter is a FiendDemon.(SG uses different names for the high levels for whatever reason) 

    The thing that kinda kills the argument that they could have been friends is the whole fact that the 3R's is unified against them. Once a practitioner hits a certain level they are made privy to the origin, or at least part of the origin, of the 3R's Universe. As in the case with Ji Ning when he finally became a Celestial Immortal or the realm before that. Even the independent/solo practitioners were brought into the fold and told the story since they have the leader of the respective worlds collect them to talk. An individual that chooses to ignore this and side with the Seamless gate is more than likely treated as a traitor considering that you are siding with the people who invaded your realm and after losing began to stealthily acquire power and bribe forces with techniques to join them.

    So to the original Idea of this thread, of Hou Yi going to Seamless gate to train with them, it was never a possibility. The two sides have been at odds since the SG lead the first war and killed many of the 3R gods. The Storm they constantly reference was the war for karmic luck that ended the PE(Primordial Era). Hou Yi has been with Subhuti for and undisclosed but extremely long time. It can be speculated that it was before the war ended or just after the war. That leaves a window, i can see that. But for Hou Yi or any other inhabitant of the 3R's to do so is for them to ignore the loss of countless brothers and sisters that SG killed. Especially difficult to see a harmonious attitude when SG literally invaded and began to kill.

    Since the current SG is made up of the original inhabitants of their world and the individuals they bribed or convinced to side with them due to self preservation or their own dao heart; it can be inferred that the 3R's gods are not friendly, let alone ok, with their descendants or disciples befriending them.

    Do you see where I'm coming from here? In text references and logical speculation point to this. Unless some one has a link to the chapter proving otherwise, I will continue operating under the assumption that it never happened.
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