Becoming Deity before reaching Saint level?

So reading early part of CD again got me thinking, what if you completely comprehend a profound mystery while you still haven't reach Saint level?
Say, someone with poor constitution/progress in battle qi but have an exceedingly high level of comprehension?
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  • edited April 2016
    That would be something that it's so hard there's not really a reason to do that, first off, the majority of all warriors/mages don't even get an insight into the different mysteries untill they actually become Saints, they usually advance to the Saint level once they learn to Impose.

    Second, once you become a saint you can connect to the elements on a whole new level, at the ninth rank, even if you're one the minority that are lucky enough to get an insight before Saint level, you just don't have enough connection to complete a profound mystery before you've accumulated enough mageforce/battle-qi to advance advance anyways.

    There are SO many actual Saints that are basically stuck at that level their whole lives, being able to do something that people who are so connected to the elements can't when you're not, you'd be an absolute monster, and that kind of a monster shouldn't have a poor constitution to cultivate the easiest part of all cultivation in the books.
  • That would be something that it's so hard there's not really a reason to do that, first off, the majority of all warriors/mages don't even get an insight into the different mysteries untill they actually become Saints, they usually advance to the Saint level once they learn to Impose.

    Second, once you become a saint you can connect to the elements on a whole new level, at the ninth rank, even if you're one the minority that are lucky enough to get an insight before Saint level, you just don't have enough connection to complete a profound mystery before you've accumulated enough mageforce/battle-qi to advance advance anyways.

    There are SO many actual Saints that are basically stuck at that level their whole lives, being able to do something that people who are so connected to the elements can't when you're not, you'd be an absolute monster, and that kind of a monster shouldn't have a poor constitution to cultivate the easiest part of all cultivation in the books.
    What I'm referring to is the constitution of one's body. Having a dragonblood warrior's bloodline helps improving one's level to progress but what if someone has the opposite, like his body have some abnormality/poor constitution that makes it very difficult to progress? On the other hand, his level of comprehension is much higher than most people, this doesn't have much to do with the body since this is mostly the spiritual/mental department (unless you're testing out the skill but this is a different matter).

    Obviously this is very rare but like Beirut and the narration says, there are plenty of abnormal things in other innumerable planes and IIRC there were no mention that you needed to be a Saint in order to completely comprehend a profound mystery. There's also that one guy Beirut mentioned who becomes a Deity at the age of 10, it's possible that he completely focuses on profound mystery and jumps straight to Deity before touching Saint.
  • Even if they would have some form of constitution that would slow down their progression on cultivating mageforce/battle-qi, I'm highly confident they would STILL accumulate enough mageforce/battle-qi to become a saint before mastering one profound mystery. They might be able to get further than some saints in the path, but I really cannot imagine a ninth ranked individual pass the final bottleneck, I just don't see it.
  • Even if they would have some form of constitution that would slow down their progression on cultivating mageforce/battle-qi, I'm highly confident they would STILL accumulate enough mageforce/battle-qi to become a saint before mastering one profound mystery. They might be able to get further than some saints in the path, but I really cannot imagine a ninth ranked individual pass the final bottleneck, I just don't see it.
    Well, why? What's the basis? The abnormality/constitution I'm talking about is like Chu Feng's bloodline here, except in CD there's no treasure that would help someone raise their cultivation level so he's pretty much doomed.
    Or even something as extreme as Qin Yu's dantian that's unable to gather any internal energy at all and needs to rely on external energy/something else. But unfortunately, there's no manuals that would help someone advance in this field like in ST.

    Rather than becoming a Saint, he would die first because of old age since he has no potential at all to reach Saint level. Since even becoming a Saint is no easy task, Linley, Wharton, Barker Brothers reached it easily since it was stated that for Supreme Warriors, reaching Saint level is only a matter of time. Someone like Zassler for example, needed nearly 1000 years to reach Saint and the hypothetical person with the abnormality/poor constitution I'm talking about naturally progressed much worse than him.

    But what if this poor character was given a piece of plot armor? What if he's given a portion of MC's luck and managed to gain many enlightenment in his journey?
    He could be someone like Ji Ning who has a weak body (except this one is on an extreme level) but powerful soul.
  • If we're talking Qin Yu's dantian issue, the person would not even be first ranked, let's not discuss ninth ranked. And if we're gonna just say for the moment, that the individual is given the ULTIMATE plot armor to possibly break through the barrier, I still feel it should not be possible.

    At the ninth ranked, you don't have even remotely close of a connection to the elements, you cannot use spiritual awareness to communicate with people and you cannot fly. There's also an obvious change to the individuals' soul once you become a Saint, without being given these advancements, I don't see how you could all the suddenly become a deity.

    I would really like to ask you, what makes you think it's possible to advance from the ninth rank to Demigod? Because right now it kinda feels like I'm the one trying to state reasonable arguments by the laws of the books universe, while you say no to them and don't say why they are wrong. You just ask for a basis.
  • If we're talking Qin Yu's dantian issue, the person would not even be first ranked, let's not discuss ninth ranked. And if we're gonna just say for the moment, that the individual is given the ULTIMATE plot armor to possibly break through the barrier, I still feel it should not be possible.

    That's why I said they would have to rely on something else, like the spiritual energy for example - something that's not relying on one's body to train, but using their soul.
    And if he's given the ultimate plot armor then it's a 1000% guarantee he will break through any barrier in xianxia, either gaining a mysteriously miraculous godlike item that would change his fate or getting a guidance from a weakened/sealed powerful person.... or both, since it's the ultimate plot armor and MC luck.

    At the ninth ranked, you don't have even remotely close of a connection to the elements, you cannot use spiritual awareness to communicate with people and you cannot fly. There's also an obvious change to the individuals' soul once you become a Saint, without being given these advancements, I don't see how you could all the suddenly become a deity.
    But spiritual awareness and flight aren't necessities to become a Deity. It's true that becoming a Saint would have many advantages but gaining insights in profound mysteries isn't related to whether or not someone is a Saint at all, Linley who's at the eight ranked human (ninth ranked dragonformed) can already produced 100 layered waves from the most difficult profound truths of the earth. It's only because he advanced too fast as a dragonblood warrior that he already entered Saint level. If he was slow in reaching Saint level, his insights may not be as fast as a Saint but it's sure as hell that he'll still improve, especially on account of wind since the insights he gained in that one is much easier than earth.

    I would really like to ask you, what makes you think it's possible to advance from the ninth rank to Demigod? Because right now it kinda feels like I'm the one trying to state reasonable arguments by the laws of the books universe, while you say no to them and don't say why they are wrong. You just ask for a basis.
    I'm not 100% sure it's possible, that's why I'm making this thread to find some plausible reason that they can't.
    Now the books have shown that you don't need to reach Saint to gain insights into the laws so there shouldn't be anything restricting someone to comprehend a profound mystery, unless it was stated otherwise.
    It's very unlikely for a normal person which is why I present someone with the condition that fits the requirement (poor constitution with high level of comprehension).
  • And the point I'm trying to make is that no matter how high comprehension an individual would have, I just cannot see how they are to break a bottleneck that even some genius saints struggle with. Even though we're saying IF they would accomplish it, they might become a deity, I just CANNOT see them breaking through that final step. There's just no situation where I can find it possible, except for that individual to be given every last drop of plot armor the book can give, which would make it redundant.
  • that can be happen to...simple example is from dragon clan after babtism they jump to become a deity even he is not saint....
  • edited April 2016
    I thought that you had to be a saint in order to recieve the baptism...? Second, that's not the individual's comprehension, that's a pure bloodline from a variant divine beast, which on its own has understood a profound mystery. I would hardly say that's the same thing.
  • And the point I'm trying to make is that no matter how high comprehension an individual would have, I just cannot see how they are to break a bottleneck that even some genius saints struggle with. Even though we're saying IF they would accomplish it, they might become a deity, I just CANNOT see them breaking through that final step. There's just no situation where I can find it possible, except for that individual to be given every last drop of plot armor the book can give, which would make it redundant.
    Hey, I'm not the one saying that the character should be given the ultimate plot armor. I said it very clearly in my previous post that this poor character should just be given a piece of plot armor, something like gaining some enlightenment when he reached a bottleneck, nothing more.

    And breaking through the impossible is exactly what xianxia MCs specialize in. It's like those people who're shocked to find out the MC's cheats and all of them thought that it was impossible to achieve.

    What I'm looking for in this thread is if someone find something that I missed, like it's mentioned that if you want to be a Deity, your soul needs to reach Saint level or some other restrictions.
    If there's no mention of them then I don't see why not. If you can't see it happening, then that's fine, I respect that. We can just have differing opinions, but since there's no solid proof then I would stick to mine. After all, the genius Saints that we've seen so far are very limited, Linley and Olivier are geniuses in the scale of Yulan plane but it's been stated multiple times in the novel that there's nothing impossible in this countless planes, and that there are plenty of other monstrous geniuses surpassing the 2 of them if we're looking at the grand scheme of things.

    And anyway, it's not the first time I've seen someone becoming a powerful existence by jumping through previously established ranks (Qin Yu in ST comes to mind, as well as the Yue Yang from LLS).
  • Well unless you born with unbelievable high attitude towards an element you can't even feel it until you become saint. Because your soul isn't even ready for that. Heck, even understanding a law can take a few dozen years. You probably can't comprehend it before becoming a saint because your soul is way too small for that kind of shit and can't withstand it.
  • Salante said:
    Well unless you born with unbelievable high attitude towards an element you can't even feel it until you become saint. Because your soul isn't even ready for that. Heck, even understanding a law can take a few dozen years. You probably can't comprehend it before becoming a saint because your soul is way too small for that kind of shit and can't withstand it.
    But Linley did it. Eight ranked Linley can already feel the elements and had been gaining breakthroughs in the most difficult law in profound truths of the earth as well as the fast and slow concept in the profound truths of the wind.

    Yes, I've thought about the soul problem as well, but the hypothetical individual in question have a powerful soul. Since usually, high comprehensive ability = powerful soul. And not to mention someone's soul is growing, albeit imperceptibly, over time and if they experienced some sort of extraordinary event, it could become stronger too.
    A few dozen years to understand a law, yes, but don't forget that the lifespan of mortals in CD reached the maximum of 500 years.
  • Unless it's been stated in the books, anything said in this discussion is merely hypothetical, and therefore is pretty baseless and cannot really be regarded as valuable. The books has stated over and over again you have to go from one step to the other. It has NEVER stated anyone or even if it's possible to go above one rank. 

    This discussion is the exact same discussion as "Can you go from God to Paragon HighGod", it's all hypothetical and in my opinion, pretty pointless. Even if this individual is an absolute freak, following the rules of the books, it's not possible, that's why I feel continuing the lines of hypthetical reasoning, is redundant. Because it cannot be proven and it's not even canon for the story, why bother?
  • edited April 2016
    Unless it's been stated in the books, anything said in this discussion is merely hypothetical, and therefore is pretty baseless and cannot really be regarded as valuable. The books has stated over and over again you have to go from one step to the other. It has NEVER stated anyone or even if it's possible to go above one rank. 
    Well there's no reason to discuss about something that we already know now, right?
    It's not completely baseless. It's been proven by Linley and Blumer that someone below Saint level can gain insights into the law and mold it into a technique, so there shouldn't be any reason not to be able to comprehend said law.
    Please provide the quote for that statement, this is what I'm looking for, if it was really stated that you need to reach Saint level in order to become a Deity then that's good.

    This discussion is the exact same discussion as "Can you go from God to Paragon HighGod", it's all hypothetical and in my opinion, pretty pointless. Even if this individual is an absolute freak, following the rules of the books, it's not possible, that's why I feel continuing the lines of hypthetical reasoning, is redundant. Because it cannot be proven and it's not even canon for the story, why bother?
    Because it's fun just to think of the possibilities?
    Why would people in fandoms bother about crazy theories?
    Why would someone pit a character x against character y from different series?
    Why is there a thread about how Deities poop?

    For me, it's to indulge in my curiosity and I think it's fun doing so, I don't need it to be proven. In your opinion it's pointless but someone else might have a different idea.
  • edited April 2016
    Then I suppose you'd have to have someone else answer your question, I've tried my best to give reasonable explanations through the rules of the books. I just should say, if it is possible, it should have been some information about it in the books, right? It hasn't, though.

    It's been stated through absorbing golden soul pearls that when your soul power increases, your comprehension through the mysteries increases, but the ninth ranked warriors/mages just don't have powerful souls, so being comprehensive enough to advance through that final bottleneck just seems impossible to me. It took over 5 years for Linley just to reach around 110~ waves of Throbbing Pulse of the Earth, but once he had become a Saint he managed to merge 256 layers to 64 layers in 8 years, which is basically ten times or even hundred times harder and he did it within an almost equal timeframe. The results are obvious.
  • edited April 2016
    Then I suppose you'd have to have someone else answer your question, I've tried my best to give reasonable explanations through the rules of the books. I just should say, if it is possible, it should have been some information about it in the books, right? It hasn't, though.
    How so? There are plenty of examples in fiction where there's little to no information at all which leaves us to speculate whether or not such things are possible. That's why there's so many theories floating around the internet. I remember reading a thread in naruto forum about whether or not it's possible to mix a bloodline limit using Human Puppet method or Edo Tensei transplant. The manga never specify whether or not this is possible but it doesn't have that much contradicting elements either.

    Also, some authors deliberately withheld juicy information and leave it to the fans' own imagination just so the mystery keeps on going (*cough* motherf*cking Nasu *cough*).

    It's been stated through absorbing golden soul pearls that when your soul power increases, your comprehension through the mysteries increases, but the ninth ranked warriors/mages just don't have powerful souls, so being comprehensive enough to advance through that final bottleneck just seems impossible to me. It took over 5 years for Linley just to reach around 110~ waves of Throbbing Pulse of the Earth, but once he had become a Saint he managed to merge 256 layers to 64 layers in 8 years, which is basically ten times or even hundred times harder and he did it within an almost equal timeframe. The results are obvious.
    Yes, I mentioned before that becoming a Saint would have many advantages but it's still possible to gain insights without becoming one. And Linley didn't even have any major enlightenment when he comprehended the throbbing pulse of the earth yet he could still reach that height, something that Haydson, who spent centuries as a Saint, could only hope for.
  • Then I suppose you'd have to have someone else answer your question, I've tried my best to give reasonable explanations through the rules of the books. I just should say, if it is possible, it should have been some information about it in the books, right? It hasn't, though.
    How so? There are plenty of examples in fiction where there's little to no information at all which leaves us to speculate whether or not such things are possible. That's why there's so many theories floating around the internet. I remember reading a thread in naruto forum about whether or not it's possible to mix a bloodline limit using Human Puppet method or Edo Tensei transplant. The manga never specify whether or not this is possible but it doesn't have that much contradicting elements either.

    Also, some authors deliberately withheld juicy information and leave it to the fans' own imagination just so the mystery keeps on going (*cough* motherf*cking Nasu *cough*).
    Because if it was possible to jump ranks, the system wouldn't be as it was explained in the books, then every single teacher in the universe might as well just tell every student to train to 5th-6th rank, try and get comprehension of the profound mysteries and jump straight into Deity, why bother cultivate battle-qi/mageforce at all when you can just skip all the ranks and become a deity right away? There's not much of a difference in the soul when you compare a 5th ranked person and a ninth rank, so their terms of comprehension should be the same. Why bother cultivate at all then?
  • There are three factors to this which are needed to become a deity.

    1. Time

    2. Talent/affinity
    3. Power/level

    I will explain this in reverse order so 3 to 1. 

    You need power and level to reach the saint level which makes it much easier to sense the elemental laws but much more importantly is it improves 1 and 2. So by reaching the ninth level a breath from saint level you would have say 700 years to live.(I can't remember the specifics so I may be wrong here) to reach deity level you need to master a profound mystery which took Lindley 120 something years who in terms of talent is a solid 8/10. But he went through saint level and you use the example of him creating techniques but the amount he mastered before reaching saint level was a tiny amount it was what 32 ripples out of 260 something(which is the halfway point mind you) so without saint level it would have taken a LOT longer for Linley who was very talented in the scale of the multiverse.

    2. You need affinity at top level to even sense that sort of thing and linley was a bit of an exception as you go from heavy as though it was light to impose then boom saint level. a guy said you need to understand impose to be able reach saint level so even being the ninth level solely wouldnt work because im guessing it would auto ascend you to saint level.

    1. the time aspect is important as hell as you need to know exactly how long it takes for people to reach deity level. typically people stay at the saint level before becoming a deity for thousands of years so that would make it much much harder to do it from the ninth rank but even with ungodly perception you would need to go through impose to do this and as such become a saint and also the time would be lets say 1500 years which is far beyond how long a ninth rank warrior can live.


    in short? no you can't skip being a saint it's a crucial step. for the above reasons time increased affinity to summarise though 

  • Because if it was possible to jump ranks, the system wouldn't be as it was explained in the books, then every single teacher in the universe might as well just tell every student to train to 5th-6th rank, try and get comprehension of the profound mysteries and jump straight into Deity, why bother cultivate battle-qi/mageforce at all when you can just skip all the ranks and become a deity right away? There's not much of a difference in the soul when you compare a 5th ranked person and a ninth rank, so their terms of comprehension should be the same. Why bother cultivate at all then?
    But what if they don't know whether it's possible or not? Here's the thing, cultivating battle-qi isn't that hard, at least it's not necessary to completely immerse oneself to the point of incapable of telling the flow of time, and it's also possible to raise via battling opponents. Even later on, Linley completely focused on comprehending the laws instead of training the battle-qi but it still increased in a rapid pace. Battle-qi can be accumulated over time, and it can be increased even while you're researching the laws, especially in the midst of a life and death battle.

    And obviously teachers wouldn't tell their students to completely abandon cultivating battle-qi, that would be stupid since reaching a high level would have many benefits. They would guide their students to comprehend laws while continuing their cultivation.
    So even if many of them reached a high comprehension toward the laws they're researching on, their progress in battle-qi would still overtake it and they would become a Saint first, but if the guy has some abnormalities in their cultivation? What will happen then when his comprehension towards the law overtake the progress of his battle-qi?

    to reach deity level you need to master a profound mystery which took Lindley 120 something years who in terms of talent is a solid 8/10.

    What? Linley became Wind Demigod when he's around 50+ years old so I don't know what you're talking about here.
    And he's only gaining insights into the elements when he was 21 so the time it took him to reach a Deity is 30-40 years.
    Less than 20 years after becoming a Wind Demigod, he became Earth Demigod.

    But he went through saint level and you use the example of him creating techniques but the amount he mastered before reaching saint level was a tiny amount it was what 32 ripples out of 260 something(which is the halfway point mind you)

    32? Dude, did you read the previous posts from me and the other guy? Linley took about 5 years to master 100+ layered waves when he was still an eight rank, seriously, where did you get these numbers? And it's 256 btw, not 260.
    And don't forget that this is the hardest profound mystery in earth. Linley gained insight to this first and invest much more time in this mystery yet he still became a Wind Demigod before Earth.

    2. You need affinity at top level to even sense that sort of thing and linley was a bit of an exception as you go from heavy as though it was light to impose then boom saint level. a guy said you need to understand impose to be able reach saint level so even being the ninth level solely wouldnt work because im guessing it would auto ascend you to saint level.

    Umm, I'm not getting what you mean here, are you saying that mastering impose would automatically ascend you to Saint? Cause that's a no. Linley and Blumer didn't, and it's heavily impied that Olivier already mastered quite a bit of laws before reaching Saint too so obviously he mastered impose too way back.

    1. the time aspect is important as hell as you need to know exactly how long it takes for people to reach deity level. typically people stay at the saint level before becoming a deity for thousands of years so that would make it much much harder to do it from the ninth rank but even with ungodly perception you would need to go through impose to do this and as such become a saint and also the time would be lets say 1500 years which is far beyond how long a ninth rank warrior can live.

    Time can be shortened by numerous methods. Such as sudden insight and enlightenment gained from battle. Not to mention most people who took thousands to reach Deity, all of them suffer from bottleneck that took 70-90% of their time. The hypothetical character I mentioned above, should just be given some breakthroughs/enlightenment when encountering one.
  • Because if it was possible to jump ranks, the system wouldn't be as it was explained in the books, then every single teacher in the universe might as well just tell every student to train to 5th-6th rank, try and get comprehension of the profound mysteries and jump straight into Deity, why bother cultivate battle-qi/mageforce at all when you can just skip all the ranks and become a deity right away? There's not much of a difference in the soul when you compare a 5th ranked person and a ninth rank, so their terms of comprehension should be the same. Why bother cultivate at all then?
    But what if they don't know whether it's possible or not? Here's the thing, cultivating battle-qi isn't that hard, at least it's not necessary to completely immerse oneself to the point of incapable of telling the flow of time, and it's also possible to raise via battling opponents. Even later on, Linley completely focused on comprehending the laws instead of training the battle-qi but it still increased in a rapid pace. Battle-qi can be accumulated over time, and it can be increased even while you're researching the laws, especially in the midst of a life and death battle.

    And obviously teachers wouldn't tell their students to completely abandon cultivating battle-qi, that would be stupid since reaching a high level would have many benefits. They would guide their students to comprehend laws while continuing their cultivation.
    So even if many of them reached a high comprehension toward the laws they're researching on, their progress in battle-qi would still overtake it and they would become a Saint first, but if the guy has some abnormalities in their cultivation? What will happen then when his comprehension towards the law overtake the progress of his battle-qi?

    to reach deity level you need to master a profound mystery which took Lindley 120 something years who in terms of talent is a solid 8/10.

    What? Linley became Wind Demigod when he's around 50+ years old so I don't know what you're talking about here.
    And he's only gaining insights into the elements when he was 21 so the time it took him to reach a Deity is 30-40 years.
    Less than 20 years after becoming a Wind Demigod, he became Earth Demigod.

    But he went through saint level and you use the example of him creating techniques but the amount he mastered before reaching saint level was a tiny amount it was what 32 ripples out of 260 something(which is the halfway point mind you)

    32? Dude, did you read the previous posts from me and the other guy? Linley took about 5 years to master 100+ layered waves when he was still an eight rank, seriously, where did you get these numbers? And it's 256 btw, not 260.
    And don't forget that this is the hardest profound mystery in earth. Linley gained insight to this first and invest much more time in this mystery yet he still became a Wind Demigod before Earth.

    2. You need affinity at top level to even sense that sort of thing and linley was a bit of an exception as you go from heavy as though it was light to impose then boom saint level. a guy said you need to understand impose to be able reach saint level so even being the ninth level solely wouldnt work because im guessing it would auto ascend you to saint level.

    Umm, I'm not getting what you mean here, are you saying that mastering impose would automatically ascend you to Saint? Cause that's a no. Linley and Blumer didn't, and it's heavily impied that Olivier already mastered quite a bit of laws before reaching Saint too so obviously he mastered impose too way back.

    1. the time aspect is important as hell as you need to know exactly how long it takes for people to reach deity level. typically people stay at the saint level before becoming a deity for thousands of years so that would make it much much harder to do it from the ninth rank but even with ungodly perception you would need to go through impose to do this and as such become a saint and also the time would be lets say 1500 years which is far beyond how long a ninth rank warrior can live.

    Time can be shortened by numerous methods. Such as sudden insight and enlightenment gained from battle. Not to mention most people who took thousands to reach Deity, all of them suffer from bottleneck that took 70-90% of their time. The hypothetical character I mentioned above, should just be given some breakthroughs/enlightenment when encountering one.
    i admit time wise i messed up as i hadn't read the series in months and i suck with remembering numbers of the top of my head but let's go against a lot of what you said.
    when i was talking about the impose needed to ascend and auto ascend i was referring to this part 

    “Master Linley, you have already mastered the level of using the force of the heavens and the earth. My master once said that in order to reach the Saint-level, one must master this level. I am too far off from your level, Master Linley.” Lancy knew his own limits.

    so while not necessarily needed or auto ascend to master a profound mystery you need to go through this step as it is a fundamental level needed to go through. also quick thing i was 4 ripples off. sue me.

    also i know what you mean when you say quite a bit by the whole light and darkness sword style that oliver had perfected before he reached the saint level. linley was the same with his pulseguard defence and his attack the hundred layered waves that was added on slowly. but using this is as an example quickly that attack grew so many times stronger every mini timeskip in the series as he put more of his understanding of the profound truths into it. this shows just how little they know at their level as the attack to increase in power by such a riduclous degree.

    for your last point i will concede that a sudden insight would help tremendously but enlightenment would be FAR more likely to just explosively increase his battleqi/mageforce rather than mastering the majority of a profound mystery for example take him from a 5 to 7 warrior/mage rather than what you suggested 
    so to partially conclude as im sure you poke holes in what i've said. i get what you mean but its skipping a step that needs to happen. to compare it to ST its like skipping xiantian and immediately undergoing the heavenly tribulation and becoming jindan stage is the range of level gap you are proposing 
  • Okay, this is probably going to be my last post on this thread.

    Is it possible that if for some god forsaken reason that an individual is given the ultimate plot armor, being an absolute sovereign level comprehensive individual and being just a natural born FREAK, and for some reason cannot cultivate battle-qi(Which is the most ironic situation I have ever read), is it possible to reach deity level from ninth rank? I don't see why not, but I don't see why either, since it hasn't been stated in the books, if someone says yes, they are right and they are wrong, if someone says no, they are also right and wrong. It's a loophole, that's just how it is.

    Not, let's be RATIONAL, is it possible, AS A NINTH RANKED, to be comprehensive enough to reach the final bottleneck of a mystery and break through? No. Their soul is too weak, and they simple do not have the capability to get to that point, they're going to die from the short life span they have before even getting half way through.

    TLDR: If you feel it's possible if given every single plot armor and non-rational reason that they break through the bottleneck as ninth ranked to become a Demigod, then you're right. But rationally, it's 100% impossible because they're too weak to break through that remaining bottleneck, even if they're way better at comprehending the laws than Linley, they're only going to get to the bottleneck at most, and then die of old age.
  • edited April 2016
    personman123 said:
    “Master Linley, you have already mastered the level of using the force of the heavens and the earth. My master once said that in order to reach the Saint-level, one must master this level. I am too far off from your level, Master Linley.” Lancy knew his own limits.
    so while not necessarily needed or auto ascend to master a profound mystery you need to go through this step as it is a fundamental level needed to go through.
    Well yes, that's a necessary step but it can be completed before becoming a Saint.
    I'm sorry but I think I'm still confused, are you implying that mastering impose would be a difficulty?

    personman123 said:
    also quick thing i was 4 ripples off. sue me.
    lawl

    also i know what you mean when you say quite a bit by the whole light and darkness sword style that oliver had perfected before he reached the saint level. linley was the same with his pulseguard defence and his attack the hundred layered waves that was added on slowly. but using this is as an example quickly that attack grew so many times stronger every mini timeskip in the series as he put more of his understanding of the profound truths into it. this shows just how little they know at their level as the attack to increase in power by such a riduclous degree.
    That, or the fact that Linley gained insight in powerful profound mysteries.
    In earth, he comprehended the most powerful one so obviously the increase in power would be tremendous.
    In wind, he simultaneously comprehended 2 opposing concepts (fast and slow) and combining them. Thus, his power in wind isn't much weaker than earth.

    As for Olivier, we don't really know how powerful the insights he got was but seeing that his light element can matched Linley then it's definitely not something simple. And then later his soul got mutated, which makes us unable to judge it anymore.

    Now these laws are powerful and that's why it's hard to research on but what if someone gain insights into the weaker side? Or even the most basic one like the essence of the earth? This is definitely way easier to reach.

    personman123 said:
    for your last point i will concede that a sudden insight would help tremendously but enlightenment would be FAR more likely to just explosively increase his battleqi/mageforce rather than mastering the majority of a profound mystery for example take him from a 5 to 7 warrior/mage rather than what you suggested 
    Eh? Is gaining enlightenment in profound mysteries actually helps increase battle-qi? Please remind me cause I'm not too sure either.
    That time Linley suddenly surged to seventh rank mage was because he's in that state of nothingness or something, his spiritual energy is cultivated through repeated use and getting replenished by the elemental essence. Even then, after 10 days of constantly being in that state (which surpassed even Doehring's total time), he only increase 1 rank.
    And of course, getting enlightenment doesn't mean immediately mastering the majority of the profound mystery but it will help making breakthroughs to reach the next step, especially if that next step is the final bottleneck.

    so to partially conclude as im sure you poke holes in what i've said. i get what you mean but its skipping a step that needs to happen. to compare it to ST its like skipping xiantian and immediately undergoing the heavenly tribulation and becoming jindan stage is the range of level gap you are proposing 
    This isn't a good comparison.
    For the Heavenly Tribulation to arrive, you need to have some intuitive understanding in the Way of the Heaven.
    And to have some understanding, obviously you need to gain an intuitive enlightenment in the Way of the Heaven, which is the requirements to become a Xiantian.
    In other words, you can't reach Jindan without becoming a Xiantian because the path is directly linear. To gain intuitive understanding, you need to do it AFTER you gain intuitive enlightenment.

    To become a Deity however, what's required is only to comprehend a profound mystery, which is something that you can gain insights to BEFORE you step into Saint level.

    Is it possible that if for some god forsaken reason that an individual is given the ultimate plot armor, being an absolute sovereign level comprehensive individual and being just a natural born FREAK, and for some reason cannot cultivate battle-qi(Which is the most ironic situation I have ever read)
    Again, why ultimate plot armor? It's not really needed, only a bit to help the character breakthrough when encountering bottlenecks.
    Sovereign level comprehension? You do know that many Sovereigns are actually much slower than Deities in comprehending profound mysteries, right?

    is it possible to reach deity level from ninth rank? I don't see why not, but I don't see why either, since it hasn't been stated in the books, if someone says yes, they are right and they are wrong, if someone says no, they are also right and wrong. It's a loophole, that's just how it is.
    Which is why we're debating it. If something is clear, it won't create an argument like this.
    Exactly it's a loophole, we don't know for sure whether or not it can but that's why we try to have hypothetical situations to find out. That's why theories abound.

    Not, let's be RATIONAL, is it possible, AS A NINTH RANKED, to be comprehensive enough to reach the final bottleneck of a mystery and break through? No. Their soul is too weak, and they simple do not have the capability to get to that point, they're going to die from the short life span they have before even getting half way through.
    And why is this a problem? Even if you create a divine clone, your soul is protected during the process. And what if one choose to train for just one law, he doesn't need his soul to be split and there would be no harm then.

    TLDR: If you feel it's possible if given every single plot armor and non-rational reason that they break through the bottleneck as ninth ranked to become a Demigod, then you're right. But rationally, it's 100% impossible because they're too weak to break through that remaining bottleneck, even if they're way better at comprehending the laws than Linley, they're only going to get to the bottleneck at most, and then die of old age.
    There's no need for every single plot armor and non-rational reason. That's merely what you think is needed.
    What we've seen in Saint stage is very limited. We've only seen Linley comprehending powerful mysteries which obviously much harder to gain insights in, but what if one trains in the simplest, most basic profound mystery (e.g. essence of the earth)?

    Ah yes, I almost forgot, Keep in mind that Linley and Olivier trained in 2 different laws. Which means that they need to divide the time to comprehend each law and that makes it twice slower than usual. War God said that it's better to just focus on 1 law and Linley did acknowledge that it's way faster in doing so.

    Now, with a comprehensive power that is much stronger than Linley and a profound mystery that is much easier than the one Linley gained insight in, coupled with completely focusing on 1 law, as well as given a piece of plot armor to help in times of bottlenecks, you still think it's not possible?


  • edited April 2016
    Yes, I do. And I'm not sure what you mean about soul being protected when creating a clone, because that's completely besides the point of what I said. If we're being rational here, and talk about how everything has been officially stated in the books, the individual persons soul is too weak to COMPREHEND, sudden insights or not, the soul is too weak for it. I'm not saying the soul is too weak to create a clone, that's redundant, they just don't have the capability of mastering a mystery with the weak soul they have.

    You seriously underestimate just how important the individuals soul increases once they become a saint. Sure, they can get initial comprehension of the mystery, they MIGHT get half way, but their soul is just too weak to comprehend further, sudden insights or not, they're not gonna get much further before they die of old age. And let's be honest here, exactly what can a ninth ranked individual experience to get a "sudden insight" when Saints(Who are the only ones the person can turn to to get insights) are basically going to neglect him and not even bother because he's not a saint.

    So honestly, he's not going to get enough experiences to begin with that can give him sudden insights, that is mostly obtained through fighting people of simillar strength that utilizes the laws, he's not going to get that.


    I'm gonna be honest, I don't really care about theoretical possibilities, because it doesn't really mean anything, I'm a rational dude, I follow the rules of the universe I am discussing, and by the rules of that universe, the individuals soul is too weak to fully comprehend a path, the individual, even though he has this so called disability and cannot cultivate battle-qi or mageforce, he's either going to become a saint through cultivate battle-qi/mageforce or DIE OF OLD AGE. That's how a logical point of view goes. You're free to discuss theoretical points of views with someone else, because I don't see what exactly I or anyone else for that matter can gain from it, because in the end, it doesn't even matter.

    So last final statement, IF you master a mystery as a ninth ranked, can you become a deity? Doesn't matter, you're never going to get to that point. Ever.

    This thread is exactly like the "Can you go from Demigod to HighGod Paragon" thread, it's a pointless thread because everyones opinion of the matter is both the right and the wrong one, no one is right and no one is wrong so no one is going to agree with eachother. >_< I'm out.
  • edited April 2016
    Yes, I do. And I'm not sure what you mean about soul being protected when creating a clone, because that's completely besides the point of what I said. If we're being rational here, and talk about how everything has been officially stated in the books, the individual persons soul is too weak to COMPREHEND, sudden insights or not, the soul is too weak for it. I'm not saying the soul is too weak to create a clone, that's redundant, they just don't have the capability of mastering a mystery with the weak soul they have.

    You seriously underestimate just how important the individuals soul increases once they become a saint. Sure, they can get initial comprehension of the mystery, they MIGHT get half way, but their soul is just too weak to comprehend further, sudden insights or not, they're not gonna get much further before they die of old age. And let's be honest here, exactly what can a ninth ranked individual experience to get a "sudden insight" when Saints(Who are the only ones the person can turn to to get insights) are basically going to neglect him and not even bother because he's not a saint.

    So honestly, he's not going to get enough experiences to begin with that can give him sudden insights, that is mostly obtained through fighting people of simillar strength that utilizes the laws, he's not going to get that.


    I'm gonna be honest, I don't really care about theoretical possibilities, because it doesn't really mean anything, I'm a rational dude, I follow the rules of the universe I am discussing, and by the rules of that universe, the individuals soul is too weak to fully comprehend a path, the individual, even though he has this so called disability and cannot cultivate battle-qi or mageforce, he's either going to become a saint through cultivate battle-qi/mageforce or DIE OF OLD AGE. That's how a logical point of view goes. You're free to discuss theoretical points of views with someone else, because I don't see what exactly I or anyone else for that matter can gain from it, because in the end, it doesn't even matter.

    So last final statement, IF you master a mystery as a ninth ranked, can you become a deity? Doesn't matter, you're never going to get to that point. Ever.

    This thread is exactly like the "Can you go from Demigod to HighGod Paragon" thread, it's a pointless thread because everyones opinion of the matter is both the right and the wrong one, no one is right and no one is wrong so no one is going to agree with eachother. >_< I'm out.
    Please provide statements where it says that you need to have a powerful soul to be able to master a mystery. Because as far as I've read, there's no mention of something like this.

    Am I underestimating the increase of individual's soul after becoming a Saint, or you're the one overestimating it?
    Olivier as a Saint has a soul comparable to eighth rank magus, I don't see how this is such a heaven-defying difference. Olivier who has soul comparable to an eight rank magus still progressed much faster than many other Saint rank magus like Heidsen, Rosarie and Desri, so where is this incapability to comprehend comes from?

    Ninth rank warrior should have soul comparable to fifth-sixth rank magus or even higher. And this is talking about someone with ordinary soul, not an innately powerful one.

    Instead of saying someone won't be able to ascend multiple times, it would be better to provide examples or evidences of said feats.
  • Flyingboots

    you are incorrectly using the term "rational" a rational person does indeed take into account theoretical possibilities. What you are looking for is a practical sense. Yes this and the whole paragon argument is impossible in a practical sense, we all get that, but we are making theories of what could be which is not in the least considered "irrational" rational means using reason which is exactly what both naofumishield and I were doing. Want to know who else use theories all the time, scientist who we can all agree basically are the most rational. Do you dislike the likes of Einstein, who is THEORETICAL physicist. He took current knowledge, made sense out of it, question, and proposed ideas of what could be, and a lot of the stuff he started with was a bit of an asspull. A famous quote by him: Imagination is more important than knowledge. He even tried to prove his unification theory, that the universe can be explained by one set of laws combining general relativity and electromagnetism, two very different, contradictory ideas. Although he failed in his lifetime, others founded the string theory which could possibly prove him right. My point is making theories is the absolute opposite of being irrational, even if it's in the context of novels. It's not like we are stating ideas completely unrelated or heavily contradicted. And if you just dislike theories, that's fine, it's your opinion but honestly you made your point in a single comment and couldn't provide a decent argument refuting naofumishield claims, other than it isn't possible in a practical sense. And if you truly knew the rules the book, you would be able to give straight answers even to hypothetical questions. 

    With that said, I actually don't think someone could skip over sainthood to deity and I'll provide a real argument. Sainthood is a fundamental step to becoming a deity not because it's easier with the gained soul strength and infinite lifespan, but because it transforms your souls. It's been a while since I last read this so I could be wrong, but I'll cross check my facts later. If memory serves right the soul is "crystallized" or turns into an actual shape and has meaning defining who you are. Linley upon becoming a saint gained a sword shaped soul, proving his love for battle and pursuit of strength. I believe this true for all. Now why this is important is simple, the godspark has to match your soul. When entering deityhood, the universe creates a spark specifically for you to match the soul. Furthermore, one can't even fuse with a different spark unless a saint, and I believe it said that the finalized soul was required was the reason. So a non-Saint, no matter how strong his soul strength is does not have the defined soul, so the universe most likely cannot make a spark for said person. 
  • edited April 2016
    Wow haven't checked this thread in a while, didn't realize there's a new post.

    I just checked about the soul transformed into a sword and found out that it happened when Linley became a Saint rank magus.
    But then what about the other warrior saints? I think you're on to something here, just needed something, the one thing that's still bothering me is how other Saint level warriors progress to Deity then if they need to reach Saint level in magus too?


    edit: I just read again the part when Linley reached Saint the first time, there was no mention of his soul transformed or anything. It's just that his battle-qi being much purer, having the ability to fly, his sensitivity, and other things. Increasing his soul in magus training makes sense since he's training his spiritual energy and it's linked to the soul.
  • So you completely neglected the part where because he reached Saint Level he became basically immune to soul attacks because his soul became so strong?
  • So you completely neglected the part where because he reached Saint Level he became basically immune to soul attacks because his soul became so strong?
    Could you be more vague?
    You never quoted which part of the sentence that you're replying to.

    And since when reaching Saint level suddenly making someone immune to soul attacks? Haydson didn't, Linley didn't. Linley even almost died when he received Heidens' soul attack if it wasn't for the coiling dragon ring.
  • edited April 2016
    Linley became ridiculously strong against soul attacks because of his lineage, but that's just an increased level, if you become a normal Saint, you also get a huge boost in resisting soul attacks. Just look up when Linley fought the three dragons in Mountain Range of Setting Sun, the magical dragon used a Forbidden Level soul attack and he wasn't even moved, Heidens used Life Ripper which is the strongest Forbidden Magic as an occular magus and he resisted it.

    If you've read the story you would know these two parts, no need for me to quote. If you also properly read the fight with Haydson and Olivier, Olivier used a soul attack against Haydson and he resisted it with pretty much no hardship at all. the only type of soul attack that would be really harmful is the one that Desri makes, and he is PURELLY focusing on soul attacks, which explains it.
  • edited April 2016
    Linley became ridiculously strong against soul attacks because of his lineage, but that's just an increased level, if you become a normal Saint, you also get a huge boost in resisting soul attacks. Just look up when Linley fought the three dragons in Mountain Range of Setting Sun, the magical dragon used a Forbidden Level soul attack and he wasn't even moved
    I did actually, and I found this.

    “Spiritual attacks? My ancestors in the Dragonblood Warrior clan were able to reach the Saint-level in just a few decades. They didn’t have a high level of understanding, and their spiritual energy wasn’t very strong either. There are many people in the world capable of ‘spiritual attacks’. So why, then, was our Dragonblood Warrior clan so famous? Why would they be proclaimed as the strongest of Saints?”

    The Dragonblood Warriors were the Supreme Warriors who had been blessed by the heavens.

    Even Linley’s ancestors, who had ordinary souls, no longer feared spiritual attacks upon reaching the Saint-level. This was because once they Dragonformed at the Saint-level, their souls would be protected by a unique, strange energy possessed only by the Dragonblood Warrior lineage.

    This was what a Dragonblood Warrior was! The invincible Dragonblood Warriors!

    You said that Linley's lineage only grants him an increased in level but when I checked the chapter, it outright contradicts your point.

    Heidens used Life Ripper which is the strongest Forbidden Magic as an occular magus and he resisted it.

    Nope, it goes like what I said in my previous post.

    Desri flew over and said apologetically, “Linley, I came late. If you had been killed by Heidens’ Oracular Magic, I really would have…” Desri felt extremely guilty. He knew exactly how terrifying Oracular Magic was.

    “I was over-confident.” Linley smiled mockingly at himself.

    Linley believed that his soul’s defense was very strong. With the protection of his draconic scales and his Pulseguard Defense, he had believed the enemy wouldn’t be able to do anything to him.

    But just then, he had nearly lost his life.

    Fortunately, at the last moment, within his soul, the protective energy belonging to the Dragonblood Warrior’s lineage had suddenly skyrocketed by over a hundredfold, dissolving even the fierce power of the Oracular Magic.

    Without the ring, he would've died. And even then, he only survived because of the protective energy belonging only to Dragonblood warriors, not because of his soul itself.


    If you've read the story you would know these two parts, no need for me to quote.

    lol of course, see the difference that I make after directly quoting the parts instead of just describing it like you did?


    If you also properly read the fight with Haydson and Olivier, Olivier used a soul attack against Haydson and he resisted it with pretty much no hardship at all.

    If you read it properly and provide the quote here then you will see that Haydson didn't resist it with "no hardship at all"

    The Monolithic Sword Saint, Haydson, was feeling extremely uncomfortable right now.

    He was extremely confident in his defense. He had roamed the Yulan continent for centuries now, and had never discovered anyone whose defense was stronger than his. Indeed, the obsidian sword’s battle-qi attack just now hadn’t breached his defense in the slightest.

    However…

    When the obsidian sword had struck against his fist, a strange energy had easily penetrated past his vaunted defense and directly attacked his spirit, catching him off guard and stabbing viciously into his soul.

    He felt dizzy, and his head hurt so much it threatened to split apart.


    the only type of soul attack that would be really harmful is the one that Desri makes, and he is PURELLY focusing on soul attacks, which explains it.

    Then why are you even saying that someone basically became immune to soul attacks because he reached Saint? It only shows that someone's soul is stronger once he reached Saint. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's because one reach Saint either, it could be because his soul naturally becoming stronger over time. These Saints have already trained for hundreds to thousands of years after all so it's natural that their soul is strengthening each passing year, not necessarily because of their ascension to Saint.

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